3 steps = travel

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K By K
#1

Here's my interpretation of a travel, please correct me if I'm wrong.


I've heard people say you're allowed 3 steps between catch and throw while running and it's not a travel. The rules (XV.D) say the disc must be released BEFORE the third ground contact. The way I figure, that means 0-2 steps.


While running:

1. If you catch the disc with both feet on the ground, that's 2 ground contacts. No further steps are allowed.


2. If you catch with one foot on the ground, you can take 1 step.


3. If you catch with both feet in the air, you can take 2 steps.

I'd say that's about right, most of the time when

people are doing the give and go they are making

4 or 5 ground contacts.


BTW, usually, when running you won't have a

case where you catch the disc with both feet

touching the ground (by definition of running),

but I would interpret that as 2 ground contacts as

well.

I think I interpret that slightly differently. To expand the quoted rule, it's "may throw a pass before the third ground contact after catching the disc without attempting to stop."


My interpretation of "after catching", is that you start counting contacts that happen after the disc is caught... i.e., I wouldn't count one if a foot is on the ground at the same time a foot is on the ground.


So, it's catch, one step, two steps, and if you haven't thrown or started to stop already, you're travelling.


... which also means, you either start slowing down as soon as you catch the disc... or you take one / two steps and throw... but you don't take one / two steps, then decide you can't throw yet, and then start to slow down - you should've started slowing down two steps ago. Travel. (Good luck calling that one without others getting upset at you though... unless you're playing in UPA Nationals 'Masters' - they're not afraid to call 'anything') :)

oops... I wrote, "one if a foot is on the ground at the same time a foot is on the ground" ... that's just stupid.


...it should've been, "one if a foot is on the ground at the same time the disc is caught"

Can you count landing with two feet as two contacts? By this logic, if you step out and establish a pivot foot, you're on your third contact, no? Travel!


I think if the two feet landing are simultaneously, that's one contact. If they are landing one after another, you just count the contacts.

K By K

As for "after catching", I thought that was in there to deal with catches in the air. I consider contact to be a constant thing, not the instantaneous moment your foot strikes the ground; the moment you catch the disc, if you already have a foot down, that's 1 contact.


As for 2 feet down being a single contact, by that logic doesn't that mean you should be allowed to take two 2-footed hops without travelling?

Only if you're playing an Easter Bunny point.


If both feet hit the ground simultaneously, you're going to stop abruptly. If you start moving again after that, you're travelling. That's pretty obvious isn't it?

So then, the case:


One gives, runs up-field, catchs with both feet in the air, touchs one foot (slow a bit), touchs the other foot (slow a bit more), steps out forward (stopping on the forward foot) and throws. Is this a travel? If, so, how long would one have to pause waiting to throw before it won't be considered a travel? I suppose it would be clearer if once stopped, one pivoted once about the back foot, but if one is throwing up-field, and the front foot is where they need it to be for the throw, why would one want to move it elsewhere? Does one really need to do this?


Re: "Establishing a Pivot"

IMHO, this is one of the most confusing sections of the rules. The word "establishing" implies the need for proactivity. Pivots have been discussed to death, and it seems the consensus is that some part of your body must remain in continual contact with the ground. In otherwords, there is no need to move in order to "establish" a legal pivot.


thoughts?


Very good question Sandy.


I would think that had the receiver continuously

slowed down until they threw, and not changed

direction, then their last footfall would be thier

pivot even if it was the 4th, 5th, 6th footfall.


They must also ensure that they do not lose

contact with that pivot point before the throw is

released.


If they do all that, then I can't see any difference

between that scenario, and somebody who pauses

an extra second.

Here's the rule:


VIII.D.4) If an offensive player after receiving a

pass on the run, releases a pass after the third

ground contact and before coming to a complete

stop, that player has traveled.


I interpret "coming to a complete stop" to mean

feet, or more closely pivot point, rather than

upper body, or some other arbitrary moving part

of the body.

The rule only addresses contactc after the catch is made, so what ever is or isn't touching at that time doesn't really matter.


If you release the disc before the third ground contact (made after you catch the disc), obviously everything is fine. If you're stopped when you make the catch, then any subsequent motion is travel and this rule doesn't apply.


If you haven't released the disc by the time you make the third ground contact, then you (the whole you) have to come to a stop and establish a pivot before throwing. In other words, by the time you throw, you can't still be moving (beyond the motion inherent in a throw) which fits Sandy's scenario. Considering your pivot having stopped as meaning that you've stopped doesn't really wash in my eyes, since even at a full sprint, every time your foot touches the ground, it becomes momentarily stationary.


It's largely semantic, but you can't catch, take 6 steps while slowing down, consider your "stoped" 7th contact your pivot ('cause it'll be stopped until the disc is released), throw while your 8th contact is coming down and then let your momentum carry you into a continued run once the throw is off and you're not the thrower anymore and thus can't travel. I don't think it works that way, since the player will never have come to a stop as required in VIII.D.4.

Well, I tend to think that if you


A) are coming to a stop


B) not "obviously [taking] more steps than are

required to stop"


C) establish a pivot


D) don't break or move that pivot before you

throw


then you haven't travelled. I can't see how you

can have a scenario which fulfills those four

scenarios and is something that we'd want to

prevent.


The scenario Gin-Boh describes likely does not

get past the "obviously takes more steps".


I can't see how you can be coming to a stop and

on your 7th footfall you still have momentum

carrying you forward, without obviously taking

more steps than necessary.


If you're truly coming to a stop, and are in

control enough to maintain a pivot, but you

haven't quite reached a threshold of total body

stillness to satisfy some definition, what's wrong

with that?

The problem with counting ground contact bullshit as wether someone has travelled, is someone with a rule book and a damn good triple jump could make alot of ground on their catches. The rule is in place to describe an event, that you can't run with the disc, and that if you have poseesion, you have to stop as soon as is safely possible (without necessitating a faceplant) and stay in place (pivot) until it is released from your possesion. Quit simple. It's pretty obvious when someone is lax on the stopping time. But starting to count the number of times limbs hit ground? Jeez who does that?

Jon By Jon

Craig said:


If you're truly coming to a stop, and are in control enough to maintain a pivot, but you haven't quite reached a threshold of total body stillness to satisfy some definition, what's wrong with that?



- The fact that it's a travel under rule XII.D.4.


We really need some better post quoting ability in this forum.


Jon By Jon

Sorry, that's XIII.D.4. It's the one Temple quoted above, but he listed it as VIII.D.4.

I'm with Temple on this one. The rules don't eliminate the need for common sense and an understanding of the intent behind the rule. I mean, you can invent some really cool scenarios about astronauts playing Ulti on the moon and taking three giant steps and landing in the endzone, but that's not really useful and it's not going to happen often enough to worry about in a real game, is it? There's always 'back to thrower' as an option.

3 steps does not = travel


God Damn it people, please note that there are 2 (TWO!!!!) different rules here, people are always F**ing this up.


You don't get 3 free steps when you catch the disc! If you are standing still then you can't move. You must come to a stop "As soon as possible!" So if I catch it and take 3 Giant leaps without attempting to stop, then it's a travel!


If you do catch on the run and throw, then the current contact with the groud COUNTS. You can change direction or speed and you must throw PRIOR to that third contact, not during it. Basically this means:


1. Catch (with foot on ground)


2. Next step (must throw)


3. Next step (can't throw, must be stopping to establish pivot foot)


So once again, some poster said what if you have both feet on the ground when you catch, is that 2 ground contacts? Doesn't matter because you can not then start running after your catch (you are changing speed and/or direction) and thow the disc.


That is it, stop posting now.