Alt Energy will save us all.

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sez Temple

I say not yet, maybe not in time. Conservation is better, cheaper, immediate.

Have at 'er!

I was watching Monsters Inc (tm) (c) last night on good ol' CBC and thought of this debate....we can either choose to strap all our children into the screamsucker 2000 or work the laughter thing (harder but more rewarding) and then we'll have all the energy we'll ever need....

Really though I don't think Temple ever put this as an either/or proposition....In fact he seemed to be arguing for parallel action on all fronts...conserve everywhere we can reasonably do so and work on developing alternative energy sources until they are economically viable.

I'd throw in to the argument that if we fully costed our current power sources, then maybe some of these alternative sources would be much more viable.

Sorry, I didn't mean to characterize Temple's position as either/or. I just don't share his belief (or perhaps I should say my inference of his belief) we can do enough, fast enough, to reverse the current trend w/out a very big change in our consumption patterns.

Pretty close, but I'd say my stance has been:

Alt Energy better save us all, or we're doomed.

"Conservation is better, cheaper, immediate."

I'll discount the "is better" from the three reasons why it's better, and I'll agree with cheaper.

I disagree with immediate. It *COULD* be immediate, if we humans were a little more

intelligent and mature on the whole. I think it's in our future, but human culture tends to

move glacially when it comes to saccrificing the want for the greater long-term good.

Two questions for you (plural):

1) People have been championing conservation for decades. If it's immediate, why is it not


2) Assuming that we can change humanity (why shouldn't we for the purpose of discussion?),

why is the push for conservation failing to effect rapid widespread change? What can we do

differently and better?

RE: your questions

1. How do you know it's not....that's kind of the problem with conservation programs - the results are hard to measure - how do you measure power people don't consume.....I know one stat has peoples use of gas per mile driven dropping significantly since the 70' this the effect of conservation?

2. Changing habits always takes a long time. Strangely given the relative wealth of the North American society, I think too many kids are being given the impression that energy is bountiless. How do you teach your kid that energy resources are limited when you have two TV's, leave every light in the house on and own 2 SUV's. In getting people to change you have to use the carrot and stick approaches....bill people for power but ratchet up the rates as they consume more (ie. first 100kW at $1/kW second at $1.50 that excess usage beyond a base level is punished (it should be since the extra power generation usually costs more as well (ie. we kick in the burrard thermal plant and start burning gas instead of the cheap hydro electric power)). The carrot has to be in place too to get people to reduce their consumption (people get comfortable at whatever level of power usage is costing them and as long as it doesn't go up they won't change without motivation) put in consumption reduction reduce your baseline power usage by 10% in a year then get another 10% off your power bill or some similar method. People need immediate gratification - that's why these replace your old furnace/fridge programs aren't so effective because the payoff is received over 5-10 years.... Finally, we could try legislating certain products out of existence (my pet peeve is the disposable razor) or at least tagging them with environmental surcharges to make them bear their full cost from cradle to grave.

Just some thoughts

Good points, and I agree.

In the context of my posts, I'm referring to the "conservation" that Stump champions as a


solution to and prevention of a coming environmental catastrophe and/or energy meltdown/


Max breakdown of society, which would serve as an alternative to Alt-Energy (based on the

first post in the thread, and a variety of other postings).

I think conservation is extremely worthwhile, and as you suggest (and most would agree) it's


an immediate solution. It's a gradual progression to where we want to be.

I happen to think that if boutiful and clean Alt Energy solutions do not come along soon, our

current pace towards conservation won't save us in time. Based on the progress in the past


years on a multitude of Alt Energy solutions, I think that I can classify my outlook on


as: Optimistic.

Here's another alternate future.....

No alt energy source -

Energy supplies not enhanced by any future discoveries of resources

Demand targetted to increase....

What happens - economically the price of energy resources climbs steadily - what happens then - people (and companies and governments) are all pressured by the almighty dollar to reduce consumption - conservation programs become the norm and more research and resources go into developing new 'alt' sources and into maximizing the efficiency of usage of the resources we have at hand. For the individual consumer it will make them make major decisions - it already is as oil and natural gas prices rise. This effect will only increase as energy costs continue to some point the main alt energy sources (wind/solar/tidal) will become very economical and you'll see solar panels, wind turbines and geothermal systems become as ubiquitous as the family carcycle.

stats for you in the attached link - interesting but somewhat disheartening.

even more interesting is the profile for Germany/Europe - consumption is dropping there...and Germany has more cars per capita than Canada...

"No alt energy source - Energy supplies not enhanced by any future discoveries of resources

Demand targetted to increase....

What happens - economically the price of energy resources climbs steadily - what happens

then - "

I very much like this possibility, but I'd be surprised if what happens next was so... rational.

I'd think it more likely that one greedy country and its residents would choose not to tighten

its belts, and wage war to secure a supply of oil (can we say Eye-Rack?). If supplies get

really tight around the world, and growing countries continue to demand more and more

energy (China springs to mind), you'll see potentially major conflicts arising over the precious


I want to believe that we'll have the foresight and discipline to prevent this future, but I'll

remind the reader that humans have waged war over salt. And I don't think

we've changed all that much since then.

Now I don't think that we're all that near to a significantly diminished oil supply that we really

need to worry about that scenario for quite a while (but it would eventually happen without an

Alt Energy source).

More likely than the 'Mad Max' spiral, is the likelihood of irreparable catastrophic damage to

our climate (I don't think we've quite hit that yet, but when will it be 'too late'?). I think that

this is likely to happen long before we run out of oil.

Sure conservation will continue (and is continuing) to grow and become a bigger part in

everybody's daily lives (although, we're right now re-introducing the '70s gas-guzzling

muscle-cars like the charger for chrissakes), but I don't think that we'll ever get to the point

(without significant advancements in Alt-Energy solutions) where we're conserving enough to

prevent the looming civil or environmental disasters.

I'll disagree - energy prices will ratchet up incrementally over time and as such people, companies and governments will make incremental changes to their actions. Energy prices will continue to rise over the next 50 years as oil becomes more and more expensive to extract and supply sources decline - we won't just wake up to $1000/barrel oil tomorrow. At the same time other energy sources will become relatively economical compared to oil costs and even be superior to oil once economies of scale and techno improvements enhance various of the alt sources.

As such I don't foresee a war for oil/energy - there may be an economic 'war' as countries and companies try to secure energy sources but military war is way too expensive for this to make sense - as an example the Iraq war is a huuuuge net loss for the US in dollar terms alone - and Iraq's attack on Kuwait (to my understanding) was not about securing oil but about stopping Kuwait from tapping reserves that Iraq felt were their sovereign right.

"but I don't think that we'll ever get to the point (without significant advancements in Alt-Energy solutions) where we're conserving enough to prevent the looming civil or environmental disasters."

Maybe, but giving up isn't an option for me. Who wants to be a part of the generation that drove the final nail in the coffin with the hammer of apathy?

As I've mentioned previously, spreading around the work makes it possible.

Can anyone reading this thread seriously tell me that they can't find another way to work one day a week? Carpool, gut it out and ride the bus, ask your employer if you can tele-commute, there's even this miraculous invention that allows you to convert muscle power into rolling locomotion, but I dare not say its name. The options are there. An immediate 20% drop in commuter traffic is very do-able. It's a start.

I'll bite - I live in Port Moody - work in West Van - this trip would be approximately 1hr 45 minutes by transit each way vs 35-40min by car - too far to bike (50km) and my work requires my presence in person. I could go 80% work but then couldn't afford to make mortgage payments. Oh and did I mention I have to drop my son off at daycare before I hit the roads...the daycare we got is a 10minute drive (30min by bus) so add that to any calculation. Hmm, I guess I could gut it out but I'd only ever see my son on the bus ride to daycare and never see my wife...nice life to 'gut out'.

The only solution is for me to change jobs - I'm thinking about it, but I have narrowed down the list of companies I would work for that are in a 15min drive/bike range and the list is pretty short.

I think I'll be getting a hybrid auto sooner than later - about the only way I can make an immediate improvement in my impact.

Oh yeah and I'd like to play in league once a week this bike - yeah right I'm not lance armstrong - I'm not even lance bass. BTW who names their kid Lance. Freaks.

I'd suggest that one day a week you drive your child to daycare, then park the car back at home and take the bus. Just for one day a week. Or maybe fortnightly? (love that word). Seriously, every little bit helps and you'd be setting a wonderful example for your son by demonstrating the value of incremental change.

Don't try for all or nothing. It's too easy to get discouraged and burnt out.

Also, if you're doing a lot of highway driving you might not get the benefits of a hybrid that you're expecting.

Currently you're caught in a feedback loop of the worst kind. Need the car to get to the job to pay for the car to get to the job to pay for the house in the burbs that requires a car to get to work. Ouch.

Ok so once a week or whatever I throw away 4 hours of my life per week. and add the aggravation of using transit with all the other freaks and losers And I get to feel good about myself.

Ok first increment passed - now what 2 days a week - so 8 hours 3=12, 4=16, 5=20...I waste nearly a day a week in transit....bullshit.

RE: hybrids yeah you're right no real benefit there, but I can at least look for ultra fuel efficient stuff - maybe vw diesel or somewhat....

Re: cycle - you've got me on the wrong cycle - it's small town boy wants to own land/have space and not smell his neighbors so decides to live in burbs in a house with a large lot, works as consultant driving all over hell's half acre - gets new job where benefits far outweigh transit time negative and actually reduces net fuel burned on a daily basis.

Read a book on the bus while doing the male version of Kegel exercises and the time is hardly a waste! Plus, if you got creative (ride a bike or drive to the nearest Skytrain perhaps) there might be ways to keep the commute time a little more reasonable.

I love this saying. "Whether you believe you can, or you can't, you'll be right."

"Freaks and losers" Nice. I'll assume you're trying to be a dick to get my goat. You're half-successful in the attempt. ;-)

Guess what? It ain't about you. It's about people you'll never meet. That's why you make some sacrifices to your lifestyle, so that others might have an approximation of the same thing in a hundred years. If you don't get that part of the equation all my suggestions are worth nothing.

Freeks and losers - yeah sorta a goat gathering comment....but have you ridden the bus down hastings on a bad day......the freak quotient is off the scale.

I checked tanslink before I posted those times the best time is 1hr23 minutes using west coast express, skytrain and an express bus - add 20 min to get from my house to the WCE counting walking and waiting at the bus/train stops - add 10 min to get from bus to office. Your closing in on 2 hrs - add in getting son to daycare....somehow shifting time since the train I'd need to catch leaves 15 minutes before daycare opens.... Oh and that was a best possible time to horseshoe bay - I actually work about 4 km from Horseshoe bay and the express bus doesn't actually go anywhere neare my I'd be on the milk run train - That also assumes I don't miss a transfer somehow.....and what about going home - I can't take that path because I can't make the last WCE train. hmm and So add 1/2 an hour or so going home - home at 7:30pm - tired,hungry and grumpily having to give my son a bath before bed. Great life.

I know it 'can' be done. I won't be the one doing it - the sacrifice isn't worth it to me or any future offspring of me.....I will be considering other options - improving auto mileage -changing locations of employment - biking or transit though is not an option that I am willing to 'gut out' even one day in twenty. I actually doubt you'd be so altruistic as to do so either. If you can honestly say you would then I'll admit you are a better man than I.

Port Moody to Horseshoe Bay ... how about a kayak? ;-)

Your plan of moving jobs sounds more reasonable and more viable than transit. Reducing time spent commuting is also best for everyone (yourself, other travelers, your community, the environment, etc).


Why not nuclear?

Ever think that energy may not be the only problem?

I'm certainly not an expert on the matter but population and unsustainable life styles could be

the big problem. Some science types say we've exceeded the world's carrying capacity a


of so people ago. If we carry on at this rate it will be more than gassing your car you'll have


worry about.

Currently it takes somewhere around 10 units of energy to produce one unit of food energy in

our current agricultural system. Most of the fertilizers and such are petroleum based products.


rising population, limited access to oil (expensive oil) and a potential food crisis.

There are a lot of movements out there trying to build localized communities where people

work, grow their own food and make their own goods (instead of importing their veggies from

thousands of miles away). Pretty crazy ideas and it would be really tough to keep league

going. Call me crazy but if I had to drive two hours every day to get to and from work, I

might be willing to give up a huge house in the suburbs for a more modest residence closer to

work. Maybe that's impossible for some people, I don't know.

Maybe energy will kill us all. Allowing us to consume emense resources, spread our population

over huge portions of potential farmland and breed more energy consuming people.

Maybe we need less energy.

Oh, and on the nuclear front, we can't even keep oil from leaking out of our cars, how well do

you think we'll be able to handle toxic waste for, what is it, 20,000 years or so?

Mr. Creosote (so is that the shrub or the black tar-like substance?)

I can sympathize with your commuting predicament - I live on the Pt Moody/Coquitlam border. But I work downtown, so a combination of bike and WCE is very convenient - 10 mins to station, 20 min train ride and 5 more to work - its actually faster than driving. On dry days I ride one way either the AM or PM - 70 mins. max, and take the train the other way. Luckily my wife works 5 mins from home and drops off our 2 boys at daycare 3 days a week plus we both only work 4 days so we have Mon & Fri off. Works nicely.

I have some ideas for you. Drive your car to the daycare ( I assume its in the Pt. Moody area) and then to the WCE. Arrange with a carpool group to have them pick you up downtown and on to West Van. That way you save parking, gas, etc for the vast majority of your trip.

Take your bike on your car and onto the WCE. Then ride from downtown to West Van. At first it'll seem like the Tour De France, but in a few months you'll be flying. Trust me I have shaved about 20 mins off my 30km trip since I first started this 4 years ago.

If your employer is game, work 4 x 10 or 9.5 or whatever to get that one day a week off. If your wife can do the same thing you save 2/5 of your daycare costs. Plus your commuting costs are down the same amount.

As far as wasting time on public transit, I feel completely the opposite about it. To me time spent in your car is the ultimate waste. You can accomplish far more when someone else is driving. Read, talk with new friends, listen to music, catch up on work, play ulty etc. Once you start you will never go back to fighting traffic. Think of the freaks and losers as free entertainment......even try talking to one - you might be surprised.

Another thing - 35 to 40 mins from West Van to Port Moody. Wow - you must be flying. Maybe you leave at 6 AM?

Ever get those advertisements for new developments with insanely underreported travel times? Its hilarious. "Just could live beside the forest with a babbling spring in beautiful Port Coquitlam....ONLY A 25 Minute drive from downtown........"

My brother lives in Maple Ridge and used to commute to Metrotown daily. He said it took him over an hour on a good day. Other people with the same commute swear it was 35 minutes. I think your perception of time spent in a vehicle is coloured by how willing you are to accept the inevitable traffic delays.

hmmm, yeah I'm an idiot or simply temporally ignorant - can't read a watch to save my life....

1)Garage door opens - check clock - 7:03 - arrive at office 7:45 - with no stop at daycare - thats on normal schools in traffic - on good days when school is out I can shave 5 minutes - or if I cheat into the HOV lane on the barnett I can shave almost 5 minutes.

2) Garage door opens - check clock - 7:07 - drive to daycare drop off child leave daycare approx 7:20 arrive at office 8:10 - note daycare is 10 minutes from my house and farther away than my house from work.

So I know how to read a clock - don't call me a moron and I won't call you a dipshit.

I like the idea of biking with the train - two problems though - I am the daycare drop off person - I can't drop off before 7 and I need to be at work at or around 8am. So at best I am on the 7:15 but more likely the 7:45 so at best I am leaving downtown on the bike at 8:05 - likely at least 45 minutes so I am at work at 9 so now I have to stay til at least 5:30 to make an 8hr day - I get to downtown at 6:15 on the bike and maybe just maybe I can make the last 6:20 train - if not I have an hour wait for the trainbus or a 30km ride home....Second problem - I am frequently required to go offsite for meetings - no car no option. )third problem- I don't have a bike (yet))

RE: driving time - not always a waste - I get to yell at the idiots on the radio (and on the road) - or I listen to my spanish language CDs or other learning CDs. But sitting for 2 hours on transit vs 40min driving then you are wasting an 1hr and 20 minutes that I can spend with my son - anything else to me is a waste.

My wife is already on 80% time and gets fridays off - If I were to work a 10 hour day again I wouldn't see my son 4 days a that's not an option.....

Thanks for trying to help but I have thought about all this stuff - I know what my options are and really the only option that is workable is finding employment closer to home.

"Trust me I have shaved about 20 mins off my 30km trip since I first started this 4 years ago."

I can totally relate. When I got back into biking as an adult it took me about 14 minutes to get from Alma and 8th to the top of the hill by the school/park. A couple years later I found myself back there and the same distance took half the time. Funny how much faster you can go w/out 20 pounds of cheeseburgers hanging off your gut!

"Thanks for trying to help but I have thought about all this stuff - I know what my options are and really the only option that is workable is finding employment closer to home."

Or moving closer to work. In this hot housing market I'm sure you could find a buyer. Not me though, I prefer to live close to where I work because my time is more precious to me than money.

Or moving closer to work...

I live in Port Moody - not likely I can find even a condo in West Van for what I could afford.

Mr. Creosote.

Sorry to set you off on my last post - I did not mean to imply you were ignorant or a moron. I'm not interested in namecalling. I only thought my ideas might help you out.

But your reply pretty much proved my point - on sober second thought you now say your actual commuting time is over an hour. Although when the planets are all in alignment you can scream at the all the idiots in Spanish from your SOV HOV vehicle within 40 minutes - this is not a typical trip.

So good luck in job hunting and dont get too many tickets....I'll be looking for ya haha

Ta ta Bagger

"not likely I can find even a condo in West Van for what I could afford."

esp. with a car payment sucking a few hundred out of the family budget every month eh? Not to mention insurance, maintenance....

zero cents a litre. two wheels good.

How you feel about the fact that the population at large is subsidizing your housing choice?

The 'burbs are social housing for the middle class because the people that live there don't bear the full cost of their amenities. Of course it could be argued that none of us do, but suburbanites take a bigger piece of the pie per capita.

"on sober second thought you now say your actual commuting time is over an hour. "

And what was the public transit time required? Two hours one way? So, instead of wasting four hours a day we're now down to two hours difference. Outside of the logistical difficulties (overcome-able if you try n'est-ce pas?) can you explain why this is too great a sacrifice every couple of weeks? Heck, that's no worse that watching the Canucks lose on a Saturday night or watching a movie that turns out to suck.

I'm very curious to hear your reasons as I'd like to understand your mindset.

Bagger - the hour commute is only due to daycare - if you also add the daycare trip into the transit/bike commute you are looking at extra time there as then transit actually becomes impossible for me due to time constraints and the inflexibility of the transit schedule.

My door to door - no stops time is 40 minutes give or take a few minutes due to variances in traffic conditions.

So no I didn't prove your point. I proved mine.

Don't have car payments or insurance - it's a company car. So my motivation is even less to not drive....But if it were to cost me then I could understand part of your point except with a kid and living in West Van you pretty much need a car anyway due to the spread out nature of the amenities and don't mention the hills. So the cost of the car payment and insurance would still be required.

Zero cents a litre - not quite if you include the increased caloric intake required - knowing you that's all in beer so I'd say at a pint per day and your say 10km total commute - your looking at 35cents a kilometer.....

And that whole subsidization argument - it gets thrown out like it's fact. Yet the way this is calculated by the bike/transit crowd is actually subject to many rebuttable assumptions. I'm not going to actually argue that there isn't a subsidization just that it's not so clearly a fact as you present it.

On your second point stump...if you sift through what I have already said you can see that transit actually _can't_ match my current travel requirements.

I have to be at work at 8am to leave at 5pm so I can see my son for all of 1.5-2hrs per day. That time is not something I will sacrifice - even once a week.

If I were to take transit to get to work at 8am I'd have to be on the 6:45am train - and even then it looks like I'd get to work at really I have to take the 6:15 train. To then leave work in time to take the last train I have to leave the office by 5:30pm and I don't get home until 7:15pm at best. If I leave at 5pm I may get home by factor having to drop my son off at daycare before I hit the train and you find that actually I couldn't make the 7:15am train and would have to take the 7:45 train and all of a sudden I'm not getting to work until I need to finish off the rest of the day on that time line....

Now all that said - I prefer driving for 40 minutes to 2 hours in transit - I enjoy the drive - I detest transit. I hate waiting at bus stops wondering if I missed the connection because the bus was early or I was late ...or maybe the bus is late or broken down somewhere along the route. I hated reading on the bus and train - you got interrupted by bells and jostling and idiots trying to talk to you such that you could never get to that truly immersive state of reading that is required to really enjoy a good book. I hated the asshole quotient on the bus drivers 1 good to 20 bad just doesn't cut it. I hated the smell of vomit. I hated the fact that they would crank the heat on cool days such that you could barely breathe and then some Rastafarian would sit down next to you with such a stink that you would add to the vomit smell if you didn't move. I hated dinging the bell to be let off - the race to do it so you didn't miss your stop. I hated missing my stop. I hated people that talked to the driver - let him drive dammit - he's got our lives in his hands. I hate the windows on the bus that are nearly impossible to open - especially when the guy with the bags of pop cans sits next to you. I hate that ozone/electric smell you get at the back of the bus. I hate the fight for the single seats - I hate holding poles that have been held by good knows how many other people each of whom has their own special disease. I hate the people who won't give up seats to the elderly and pregnant - I just want to smack them but am too passive agressive to do so. I hate the way the bus lurches like the driver is trying to slam your head into the headrest or pole in front of you. Let's just say I hate riding the bus. Ask me if I want to ride the bus for two hours per day instead of spending the time with my son - go ahead ask me.

I hate the fact our kids will inherit a shithole of a planet because of people like you.

I hate to sound like an asshole, but that's the way I see it. You're a good guy for loving your kid.

Me too, that's why I choose to live near my work and ride a bike. Different strokes.

As to my caloric intake, I neither eat more or less, I'm just thinner than I used to be when I drove.

How come when you tell us about the transit schedule you talk about taking the West Coast

Express, but you bitch about binners on the Hastings bus when you need a reason not to ride it? guys took this down this track - you asked if it was actually that much trouble to take transit or bike once a week. I bit and told you that it was for me in my current scenario - flabbergasted you and bagger jumped on me trying to find scenarios where it could work....but in the end my rational reasons for not taking transit were sufficient - my emotional reasons for not taking transit are ancillary to the argument. I'll freely admit that I am part of the problem - but I noted before that I have analzyed the issue already and have come to the conclusion that I need to change jobs. It's on my list of things to do, will take time. So until I then I remain part of the problem but at least one trying to rectify my part of the problem. Easy to be holier than thou when you don't listen to all of what another person is saying.

As to your caloric intake - simple math - calories biking > calories not biking - unless you whither away to nothing over time you will be consuming more calories than someone who doesn't - you still need more 'fuel' in the day that the average joe.

I tell you about WCE and bitch about the bus becasue no matter what I would have to take some form of bus to get to my job - neither the WCE or Skytrain drop me off at work. Unless you know of some super secret West Van only system that nobody else knows about. That said - the WCE is bearable - Skytrain - not so much - busses are just pure hell.

wow, good rant about the bus. too bad it's fictional 95% of the time.

"I hated dinging the bell to be left off" Really? You hate dinging a bell? Hate is a pretty strong word. Perhaps you dislike it?


"Easy to be holier than thou when you don't listen to all of what another person is saying. "

I've never said I'm better than you. In fact, last time you brought it up, I ignored it, because I

have no desire to turn it into a competition and I don't think this is about who's the best. It's about

asking ourselves "are we doing our best?". As you've mentioned, you're part of the problem. We

agree on that. So, I don't know how stating something we agree on turns into me taking a 'holier

than thou' position.

As to calories. For starters, my bike commute takes about 10-15 minutes one way, 50 minutes

when I have to take my daughter to daycare. Secondly, even the dreaded government

recommends the average joe engage in 45 min of exercise a day just to maintain a reasonable

level of fitness. Thirdly, a bike is so efficient that you need to be really hauling ass, riding for an

extended period of time, or taking on some challenging terrain to really burn energy. You're right,

it is simple math. You should recheck your figures and find out just how little caloric energy it takes

to ride a bike. When I started riding I was carrying extra weight. All biking has done is get rid of

that. Believe me, I'm in no danger of withering away to nothing just yet!

Finally, buses aren't 'pure hell'. Puh-leez. And the not-so-secret West Van only blue buses (which

pick up right outside the Granville Skytrain station) aren't

exactly loaded with binners are they?

peace out

"I hate the fact our kids will inherit a shithole of a planet because of people like you. "

No judgementality in that at allllll. And it sure infers that you are better than me. But my main point was that I am trying to change my footprint on the planet - it's just going to take time. In the meantime - no I can't take transit and as I pointed out my rational/logistical reasons (not the hate the bus stuff) preclude me from taking the bus.....binners were only one reason I hate the bus. Most of the reasons I hate the bus still stand even for the 'fancy' WV busses. Try not to pick JUST the stuff that supports your argument. I can give you more reasons I hate transit if you really want them...and I'll even leave out any references to any type of freak or loser.

re: pure hell - hmm stump never ever says anything that is a little over the top now does he mr kettle. buy some salt - take some grains - do with them what you will.

No judgement. Just a realistic assessment of the situation.

imply, not infer.

won't, not can't

And you'd call me on my hyperbole too.

don't shoot the messenger.

How about this one. Shipping in food from all over the planet is a huge drain on resources. It

also puts a strain on third world countries who are forced to grow cash crops instead of feeding


What if we convered all the Ulti fields to gardens to offset our need on third world countires. We

could grow wholesome organic food, create jobs and save on fuel consuption by moving food all

over the world. Not to mention all the savings in fuel by Ulti player staying home and not

driving. On any given field I may see 4 or 5 bikes and the field is surrounded by cars. Sure some

may take the bus but most probably drive.

I don't even want to guess at what kind of resources are required to maintain the fields.

How about them apples. Hoo Boy, this should be interesting.

I'd sooner convert parking lots into gardens.

Good answer.

Ah yes, it's perfect.

Someone points out some completely legitimate concerns with public transit, and you take a dump on him like he's a monster. You question the validity of his "fiction" and make words like you're the supreme example of all that is right and good with the world, and he is the example of all that is nasty and evil.

I avoid the bus for the very same reasons, with the exception of the bell, which I kind of like. There's always someone dripping something on me. The bus is never "on time" it's sometimes early, and sometimes late, but you have no way of knowing unless you arrive 20 minutes early. It's full of people yelling at themselves, or at other people on the other end of a cell phone.

Put me in with the nasty evil people driving SUVs, I dibs Stumps un-used eco-footprint.

We've hardly vilified Mr. C.

He hopped into the debate with his circumstances and reasons why he can't take the bus. Those

were countered. He found some more reasons. Those were countered.

I asked him why he can't pony up an hour a week (alt-transportation once every two weeks to

deliver a roughly 10% reduction in his commuting footprint) to be a part of the solution and his

response (partly) is he'd have to mingle with the great unwashed.

And you're accusing me of saying I'm better than everyone else? I don't think so. I don't think Mr.

C is evil or a terrible person. I just think he's starting from a faulty premise and a position of

entitlement that we don't have the luxury of accomodating anymore. I'm not going to mollycoddle

him or his choices. Rip me a new one if you find a way to prove my assumptions are faulty. I can

take it. I'm not spouting off the ravings of a mono-maniacal extremist. I telling you how it is and

how it's going to be if we don't get it together and stop behaving like Mr. Creosote (the one in the

Monty Python movie, not the poster here). Remember how that little skit ends? Very messy.

talk minus action equals zero (full credit to D.O.A. for that piece of wisdom)

As to dibs on my eco-footprint. It ain't yours to take, it ain't mine to give. But, to use your analogy,

if I put $100 in the bank for my kid's college fund, what gives you the right to come along and take

it. That's theft. I wouldn't have put it that way, but if you want to frame it in those terms....

What should we do with thieves who steal from children?

Is that judgemental enuff for ya? I CAN crank it up a notch if you want.


Have a great weekend all, let's hope Sunday lives up to its name.

Here Stump, I fixed a couple of your sentences for you:

I'm spouting off the ravings of a mono-maniacal extremist. I telling you how _I think_ it is and how _I think_ it's going to be if _people who aren't as pure as me_ don't get it together and stop behaving like Mr. Creosote.

I agree, I hope Sunday is a great day, and everyone has fun final games for the season. We sure had a good run of it this year! Only a couple of rainout!

Well, I've had the pleasure of reading through this interesting discussion thread. I must say that I'm dissapointed to see a topic that started out with so much promise has regressed into Stump's diatribe towards Mr. C

Gentlemen, I think you've missed the whole point of this debate. Who cares whether you reduce your impact through carpooling, public transit, or whatever other means. What matters here is that we all make a concious decision to reduce our environmental footprint in some way. Mr. C outlined very valid reasons why alternate methods of transportation aren't suited to his current needs. I don't think he just spat on the idea of public transit. After carefully considering his options, he figured that the benefits didn't outweigh the costs.

Now Mr. C, this isn't to say that your responsibility ends there. If you were truly concious of your obligation to future generations, then you would look for another means by which you can reduce your footprint.

Now for those of you who commented negatively on our transit service, I must say that I wholeheartedly disagree. As a student who has commuted for a significant part of his life, I must say that I think we have a reliable and efficient transportation network (I'm speaking in general about zones 1-2 .. haven't taken transit much from the suburbs). Having lived in other cities such as Victoria, Montreal, Toronto and Brisbane , I can say with confidence that I'd take our transit system over the others in a heartbeat.

Anyways, kudos to all who have participated in this discussion so far and provided constructive feedback.

Schecky, it sounds like you may have seen this site before, but I thought you might like it if not:

It estimates your 'ecological footprint'. My total was 4.5 hectares (mostly due to food choices, which came to 3.1). The average for Canadians is 8.8 hectares, and the site claims that worldwide there exist 1.8 "biologically productive global hectares per person", and if everyone lived like me, we would need 2.5 planets. Sobering. Scary to see how far away from sustainable the average Canadian lives, too.

Interesting site Craig. I wonder about some of their questions, but I scored quite similarly to you. I hit 5 total and also 3.1 for food.

I'm not convinced about the assumptions they make though. Presumably they score differently for houses that have running water/no water. I'm not convinced that has much of an impact. In fact, I suspect that centralized water reservoirs must actually decrease a persons ecological footprint. (Although I don't have evidence that they assert otherwise, I"m just making that assumption).