Kind of a Rule Question?

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m2c By m2c
#1

I don't think this is a rule question, but what do you think of this:

At the upcoming World Games there is talk of restricting players who are not on the field to a central bench (like soccer, and most other sports) rather than let them wander around the field. Is this against the "Spirit" of Ultimate. Is WFDF selling out?

The reasons to do this are mostly to help spectators see the games, not be confused by non-players close to the field and so they can better see the officials who will be making hand signal calls to relay calls that happen on the field (that is, not making calls, but relaying calls players make).

In addition, this will help other officials monitor the game from a central location without players in their line of site. (taking stats, etc...).

The reasons for not doing this is the ability of the "8th man" being taken away (or limited), however that is something that both teams will need to deal with. Also tradition.

So what do the forum trolls think?

Brian

I think it is a significant change to the nature of the game, and for that I don't like it. If their goal is to make it easier for spectators to differentiate players and sidelines, they could enforce a 5m restraint line which, assuming there are clearly marked sidelines should eliminate confusion as to who is on the field. Of course, at least some of us know how easy is isn't to keep non-players behind the restraint line. Depending on the facility layout (ie: how raised the stands are) the restraint line may also help with visibility.

Having said all that, it's not the end of the world, and a compromise could be a limited number "coaches" being allowed to roam at will with the rest being limited to the bench area. Although, aren't the squads at World Games limited to such a small number that there would only be a handful of non-players at a time, instead of the 20 extras per team you'd normally have?

- Spectators and officials trumping the 8th man? Yes, WFDF is selling out but maybe need some help..

Hand signals? (psst, hey WFDF: try googling 'wireless headset'). And while we're at it give the observer a mic for cripes sake. I want audio with my reenactments!

and speaking of reenactments...
I think for an observer to be involved, reenactments should be mandatory. Lets put some art back into the game. If it's going to be about the spectators, let the crowd choose the most convincing version.

But seriously, I can't imagine this ever coming to pass. Aren't we still waiting for WFDF to implement sensible roster caps?

Differentiate between players and spectators? Perhaps WFDF could mandate that players wear jerseys of a similar color with individual numbers? Oh wait, they've got that (not to mention the matching socks)

Seriously though, 8th man, goal line help, zone assistance are all called into question if you restrict player movement. No go.

I want to note that I do not agree with the WFDF on this ruling in most instances. I like Gin-Boh's idea, for them to be a specific distance away from the field. I believe that is a great compromise.

For the hand signals... I generally ask the guys infront what the call is... Or try to interpret it. I don't really care; however, I must admit it would be nice to know what the call is.

Well... for the other instances... Games that have a huge attendance, they should have stands etc... Wait. They already have that.

My biased thoughts.

Seems to me UPA already has the 5 metre line (though rarely enforced). If WFDF doesn't have that, it wouldn't be too difficult to implement it in situations where there are likely to be large crowds (stadiums), as those venues will typically have enough room for it (think Thunderbird Stadium for WUGC).

And it doesn't matter what the call is. Boo the hell out of it.

I don't really mind. It seems to me that they're trying to address problems that don't really exist yet, but we might as well try some experiments while the size of the competition is still small. Heck, it may be a sign that IWGA is taking more active interest in the sport; maybe they'll consider another expansion at the next Games.

Yes, these restrictions are a little different from what we're used to, but the Games have always been different from what we're used to. Let them give it a try if they want.

"8th (wo)man" is critical to the game now...and should remain so, in my opinion....as should heckling.

So I echo Ginboh's suggestion..and agree it can be difficult to enforce; but suggest they just do it (enforce) with 1-2 volunteers per perimeter line (as opposed to relying on the players themselves to enforce it).

m2c By m2c

IMO this does not change the "game", like a 2 point line or adding referees, but the comments about the 3M line make me smile.

One agrument I have FOR this change is that players have had and ignored the 3M line (or, when that isn't there, the idea that they should not go on the field) since the beginning of time.

With a 5M line at World Game, there is 0% chance that players would respect the line. Even during big games with player lines more time has to be spent by organizers pushing players back then delivering water or picking up banana peels.

So in my mind the players have already been given a chance in this area, and they all blew it, so go sit on the bench.

Anyway, I'm happy either way for the WG, but I would lean towards doing it if for no other reason then it seems like a good time to try it, it's a small experiment, it helps with some concers of the IWGA, and we can get some real world feedback from top level players.

Roster Limits - 28 in WUCC 2010
Mic's - This is happening as well (relay to the announcer) but as with Football and Hockey, hand signals were deemed necessary so rule geeks in the stands could get the calls in real time (IMO - This is going to fail badly!)

B

I can't wait to see the signal for strip...

"Re: Roster limits - 28 in WUCC 2010"
The nomads will be devastated. Everyone else: ho-hum. Wondering: has a two-tier roster been considered: a "tournament- eligible", and a smaller "game-dressed" roster.

Re: hand signals
Easy to miss. Reenactments are the defacto standard and a crowd favorite to boot. We just need to make them mandatory ;)

I agree with the hand-signal prediction. Considering that most players can't even figure out/remember the rules, now they're adding hand signals to memorize to refer to the rules they don't quite grasp? How are you going to sign "receiver and defender called offsetting fouls, which cancel out, and the marker called foul, contested by the thrower. Meanwhile, a pick was called over there, but it doesn't affect the play so ignore that. Disc back to the thrower, stall count at 6, please resume your places." It's going to be calisthenics for the observer/field relay.

As for the bench idea, I'm curious to see the implementation.

Okay. I can understand them setting up a parameter around for the spectators. (I was arguing with myself in my head... Well, as you can see. I didn't win the argument) I wish the players could be trust worthy, so that there really doesn't need a parameter for the players...

Now, because of Gin-Boh's comment I want to see the hand signals now.

having the players in a central area rather than roaming the sidelines is an excellent idea. it makes it easier for the spectators and it makes it more professional looking.
as for the "8th (wo)man", it's called field awareness people. if you are good enough to be playing in the world games, you probably don't find yourself relying on the sideline's help all that often"

I can agree with that to an extent.

Yes. At worlds level you have a good idea of what is happening... However, an idea isn't the fact (This is where sidelines help). At this level, you should also know that a mistake could loss a game. I personally believe that slidelines are still pivotal at all levels of the game.

"In addition, this will help other officials monitor the game from a central location without players in their line of site. (taking stats, etc...)."

I did miss this from the original post (I feel bad for not acknowledging this). I really can't argue this one. Good point.

"it's called field awareness people. if you are good enough to be playing in the world games, you probably don't find yourself relying on the sideline's help all that often"

whoa whoa whoa...hold on...since when did world games players grow eyes in the back of their heads? That'll be awesome to see! I'm booking my flight to Taiwan now....

m2c By m2c

I guess it would be out of the question that the 6 other players on the field might call "up"?

Also, getting help from the sideline can be useful, but it's behind "field awareness" and just plain "playing hard D" in terms of things that will help you play good D.

I think that at the top level, if someone walked off the field after getting burned in the end zone who blamed the lack of an up call for the score they would be yelled at and then benched by Lugsdin.

B

Actually, up calls hadn't even crossed my mind. Was thinking more along the lines of seeing where the thrower is looking, while also seeing where your mark is cutting / planning to cut. It is indeed difficult to do without afforementioned eyes on back of head (in addition to, of course, head on a swivel, and ""plain" playing hard on D"); and one of the principle supporting functions of your 8th (wo)man. In short, I disagree that sideline help is behind "field awareness" and "just plain playing hard D", but rather right alongside them.

Zone-D will be affected without sideline help, too. I guess the sideline can still yell, but they'll have to do it from a localized spot. Will there be any consequence if players leave their sideline cages?

It would be interesting thing to try, though. It's not a permanent rule change, it's just one tournament, and I'd be curious how it goes for everyone (players, officials and spectators).

Not for nothing, but with all games inside a stadium and every play being able to throw a pin point hammer (and catch it) zone may not be all that useful. IMO.

I agree that players have hung themselves with the 3 M line, they ignore it. Apparently you can get a MUCH better view of the field if you take 2 steps forward. Tie them to the bench, as long as you can stand the non stop whine that this will cause from the Aussies.

m2c