Live Disc

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#1

Just some clarification for this situation:

Offense drops disc in end zone they are defending. Defense picks up disc in endzone, throws the disc and scores a point.

For the turnover, offense should have brought it back to the line, with the disc being brought to the appropriate spot at the endzone line with no check/tap to the ground OR just "put into play"?

I would usually just bring it to the line and tap it down, establish pivot just because it never hurts and sometime everyone doesn't hear me yell disc in, but what is the actual rule, as it was discussed on the field.

I found these rules.

R. State of the disc:
1. A disc is “in play” when play may proceed without the defense’s acknowledgment. An in-bounds disc on the playing field is “in play”. The disc is subject to a turnover. To put the disc into play at a particular spot on the field means to establish a pivot at that spot.

B. If a team gains or retains possession in the end zone that they are attacking other than by scoring a goal in accordance with rule XI, the player in possession must carry the disc directly to, and put it into play at, the spot on the goal line closest to where possession was gained.

2. A disc is “live” when players are allowed to move and the disc is subject to a turnover, but the thrower cannot make a legal pass (e.g., walking the disc to the spot where it is to be put into play). For a live disc to be put into play, the thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate spot on the field, touch the disc to the ground and put it into play.

I guess I need more clarification to "live" disc. As the scenerio above was still a live disc and he was walking it to be put into play....so does he or doesn't he tap it on the ground and put it into play?

I hope this makes sense.

Sorry just an addition to the scenerio above:

Offense drops disc in end zone they are defending. Defense (now becoming offense) picks up disc in endzone, throws the disc and scores a point.

Oops and this change to:
I would usually just bring it to the line and tap it down, because it never hurts and sometime everyone doesn't hear me yell disc in, etablish pivot, then attempt throw.

Huh. I never really noticed the confusing nature of the wording of II.R.1 before.

To put the disc into play at a particular spot on the field "means" that a pivot is established. Establishing a pivot does not put the disc into play.

So, yes, after picking up the disc in the endzone, the thrower must move to the appropriate spot on the goal line, establish a pivot, and ground-tap the disc before he can make a legal throw.

I'm sorry...but you're wording is contradicting.....establishing a pivot does put the disc into play no? based on the rules stated above?

"To put the disc into play at a particular spot on the field "means" that a pivot is established. Establishing a pivot does NOT put the disc into play. "

So are you saying that the rule or definition of LIVE DISC overrules the rule regarding turnovers in the endzone (as stated above)?

What it means is that putting the disc into play goes hand-in-hand with establishing a pivot. You cannot put a disc into play without also establishing or already having an established pivot.

But II.R.1 is not a step-by-step instruction on how to put a disc into play, because it's different depending on whether the previous state was "live" or "dead." So establishing a pivot does not by itself CAUSE a disc to change to "in play."

II.R.2 tells you how to how to change the state of the disc from "live" to "in play," and you need a ground-tap in there.

thank you...and I'm totally not arguing the ground-tap b/c I think it's helpful for everyone playing on the field, but this part of the rules I find isn't clear or inconsistent...

You said:
"So establishing a pivot does not by itself CAUSE a disc to change to "in play."

According to the definitions in the rules:
II. Definitions
R.1. "To put the disc into play at a particular spot on the field means to establish a pivot at that spot."

To me, this means, establishing a pivot DOES put a disc into play.

Therefore...the rule below overrules the definition of how to put a LIVE disc to IN PLAY, as stated below, there is no mention of ground-tapping, just that it's put IN PLAY (only requires to establish a pivot)

X. End Zone Possession
B. If a team gains or retains possession in the end zone that they are attacking other than by scoring a goal in accordance with rule XI, the player in possession must carry the disc directly to, and put it into play at, the spot on the goal line closest to where possession was gained.

In my scenerio, initally mentioned, and according to the definitions, the disc was still LIVE.

See my confusion?

Yes, I see your confusion, because the wording is imperfect.

But let me assure you that II.R.2 is true in all cases of changing a "live" disc to one "in play."

You MUST ground-tap a live disc to "put it into play" after walking it to the endzone line. Establishing a pivot is part of putting a disc into play, but it is not the whole of it, and the procedure is slightly different for putting a "dead" disc into play, for example.

Here's another way to look at the wording...

A running car means that it has working spark plugs. But that does not mean that having
working sparking plugs cause the car is (always) running... There are also other necessary
things (start it, have fuel, oil, electrical, belts, etc)

Now replace "a running car" with "putting the disc into play"; "working spark plugs" with
"establish a pivot"; and "other necessary things" with "touching the disc down"' and we
get...

Putting the disc into play means that to establish a pivot. But that does not mean that just
establishing a pivot is everything you need to do to out the disc into play. There are also
other necessary things (touching the disc down).

Yes, the wording can be tightened up and clarified, and that currently is being done.

Basically, yes, establishing a pivot is part of what outs the disc into play, but in some
cases, specifically whenever you move from where you establish possession somewhere
where you have to move to somewhere else before you can throw (live disc to in-play
disc), you always have to also touch the disc down.

The examples are moving to brick, or moving to the sideline (pull or running OB after an
IB catch), or moving to the end-zone line (turnover or running into the end zone). Touch it
down or it's a "travel". Not when catching and then stopping all while in bounds, because
the disc doesn't move to live, and is always in-play.

-C-,

The section of II.R.1 that you quoted is primarily about location, not state of disc.

The more relevant passage to your question is likely the next one - II.R.2:

A disc is live when players are allowed to move and the disc is subject to a turnover, but the thrower cannot make a legal pass (e.g., walking the disc to the spot where it is to be put into play). For a live disc to be put into play, the thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate spot on the field, touch the disc to the ground, and put the disc into play.

I will admit that the last section of that rule is redundant and maybe confusing (got that, Mortakai?) in that "putting the disc into play" is not an action unto itself, but rather is accomplished by establishing a pivot and touching the disc to the ground.