Marker foul?

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#1

During a recent game, several players on the opposition marked the thrower using exaggerated jumping jacks. Because of this, some of my teammates were very hestiant to throw around their markers.


The rules say that "The thrower has the right to pivot in any direction. However, once the

marker has established a legitimate stationary position, the thrower may not pivot into the marker’s body."


My question is: what constitutes a "legitimate stationary position"? Could I simply throw *into* the jumping player and then call a foul?

"However, once the marker has established a legitimate stationary position, the thrower may

not pivot into the marker's body."


You're reading too much into this line. Take it literally for what it says. Essentially: if the

defender is stationary, you can't pivot into their body (which does not include extended arms

and legs).


The relevant rule is:


XIV.B) The marker's extended arms and legs cannot be positioned in such a manner as to

restrict the thrower from pivoting or throwing. Contact resulting from such an action is a foul

on the marker.


So, the marker is not allowed to put his extended arms or legs in such a way as to prevent

the thrower from throwing or pivoting. If they prevent you from throwing, and there's contact,

it's their foul. If they prevent you from pivoting, and their is contact, it's a foul


The VUL-specific rule about footblocks may also apply. The rule is only there to prevent the

marker from kicking near the thrower. If their jumping jacks were getting their feet up near

where you wanted to pivot or throw, you could call a footblock foul as well.

I'm just looking for a little clarification. About how far away were the markers? I quite often am quite mobile, but I stay about a meter or two away from my mark. Were the jumpers right next to the handler? Or were they further away.


Regardless, if you thrown the disc into them, if you've released it, then it's a TO. If you try to throw and their jumping hands or whatnot hit your arm while you're throwing, then it's a foul on them.

Or if you fake into their jumping jack, and they hit the disc or your arm, then it is also a foul. If they are doing it so violently that you are afraid to put your arm in there then you *might* have a dangerous play call. But seeing as how just faking the disc in is enough, that should not be necessary. Using the fake route gives you the call without the argument over whether you had released the disc or not. No, you should not do this just to "draw a foul", but you are entitled to be able to reach through without being chopped. Careful, they will probably get mad when you make the call. If they are farther away, then none of this applies.

In this particular case the marker was about a foot away. I tried to explain that any contact with arms and/or legs would be a marker foul, because I would rather prevent the foul in the first place.


But my confusion arises from the way I read the rule - doesn't the rule imply that if the *isn't* in a stationary position, then you *can* pivot into their body?


Regardless, its amazing how effective this kind of defence is, because most people will instinctively avoid the contact and therefore compromise their throws.

--> "But my confusion arises from the way I read the rule - doesn't the rule imply that if the *isn't* in a stationary position, then you *can* pivot into their body? " <--


Not to draw a foul, no. It's more that if they're not stationary, it's much more difficult to determine who initiated contact to whom. See other thread about throwers arm and markers head contact. Same or similar issues.

It may seem effective, but an experienced player will simply throw while the hands are up or draw the foul and reset the count. I prefer the former.


I would also venture (very carefully) that this seems questionable from a spirit point of view.

-G

"I would also venture (very carefully) that this seems questionable from a spirit point of

view. -G"


Of course the reason you're venturing very carefully, is because it might only be questionable

if the jumping jacks offer risk of hurting somebody right? If so, I'm in agreement, and a

dangerous play could be called (if it's dangerous).


I don't see there being any real difference between a jumping jack and very quickly swiping

your hand out to block the disc (so long as there's no footblock issues).


If it's an effective psychological D, where it's only effective because the thrower thinks they

can't throw through, I see no problem with it. This is really the same as the marker marking

super close (yet still a disc width away). It's easy for the thrower to throw over/under the

arm when they're that close, as the marker can't get the D block without fouling the thrower.


I wouldn't say there's anything poor spirited about that.

>> I wouldn't say there's anything poor spirited about that.


In this case the players were pretty new (3rd game) and I don't think were unspirited at all.


But I do think doing something that one can reasonably expect will result in contact/a foul is unspirited.

If the intent is to intimidate, scare, startle, or distract the thrower, or create a situation where the thrower could be hurt, (etc) then I would raise an eyebrow.


And Jason, add "the disc while in the thrower's hand" to the list of things that contact is not really allowed with.

Guys, don't forget that we play to have fun. In a rec game, if guys are doing jumping jacks and having a laugh (and if no one is getting fouled / getting hurt) then let's let them jump away! I appreciate Jason's second post saying it was just their 3rd game and that it was all in fun.

"The marker's extended arms and legs cannot be positioned in such a manner as to

restrict the thrower from pivoting or throwing. Contact resulting from such an action is a foul

on the marker."

I'm confused. As a marker, aren't you suppose to prevent the thrower from throwing?

Your confusion stems from a minor semantic ambiguity. Obviously, the team on defense would like the marker to (a) intercept/deflect a throw near the point of release, or (b) to dissuade the thrower from attempting throws that run the risk of interception/deflection.

That is, the marker may attempt to use his limbs to block or to discourage a thrown *disc*, but not the throwing motion (or the pivoting motion) itself.