Most Canadians see benefit from Olympics

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"I agree that criticism can be productive. You seem to believe that, yet you choose to ignore, even deride it as useless, it when it's directed at yourself or at things which you choose to champion."

Are you telling me that you sent your comments on effective protests to the appropriate parties... or am I supposed to be your message boy?

Isn't it true that I welcomed your input and encouraged you to take those suggestions to the appropriate parties?

It's funny how Keam replies to rational and constructive criticism not with rational discourse, but with repeated thought-free parroting of pithy slogans: "Lead, follow, or get out of the way", "No one can know the depth of the lake by standing on the shore"

Hey, I thought up that second one all by myself! Hardly a thought-free process. Rather catchy I thought.

Notice how you'd rather attack my character than discuss the topic? Usually a sign one has run out of valid arguments.

Keam: "Are you telling me that you sent your comments on effective protests to the
appropriate parties... or am I supposed to be your message boy?"

And the opposition to the Olympics was sent to the appropriate parties? Also, who asked you
to be the message boy? You took umbrage to posts which were not directed to you, but were
critical of actions of other parties (ie: those that prevented the WWII veterans ceremony).

In defense of those being criticized, or at least in opposition to the criticism itself, you
decided to wade in and say the criticisms were not valid due to failure to 'lead, follow, or get
out of the way'.

I guess your slogan is now: 'lead, follow, or get out of the way, or at least email your
thoughts to appropriate parties as opposed to posting them on the forum'

Again I'm failing to see where your actions differ from those you castigate when they are
contrary to your point of view on the topic at hand.

--

Keam: "Notice how you'd rather attack my character than discuss the topic? Usually a sign
one has run out of valid arguments."

Irony overload.

If you read what you quoted, you will see that I'm criticizing your writings on the topic at
hand as hypocritical. I'm not relating that in any way to any other subject. What I'm not
doing is making an ad hominem case in favour or against any point.

When somebody's arguments on a topic (the same topic) are riddled with Jekyll-Hyde
hypocrisy, it's useful to point that out. When you're applying a different standard or set of
rules in your arguments to identical actions depending on whether they are for or against your
point of view, it cuts the legs entirely out of your argument that those identical actions are
justified and valid in the one case you favour.

"In defense of those being criticized, or at least in opposition to the criticism itself, you decided to wade in and say the criticisms were not valid due to failure to 'lead, follow, or get out of the way'."

Nope. I said that some of criticisms weren't valid for a variety of other reasons. I said you had some good points and should offer them up to the relevant parties. I pointed out how you didn't really research the reasons why groups chose certain courses of action and provided links to their rationales. All of it was a big waste of time, just as this post is.

Arguing. Internet. Special Olympics. You know the meme.

CK, re: post 41.

I'm pointing out the outright hypocrisy of being fully prepared to deride the olympics based on conjecture, but the moment that someone says that it appears to have been successful they state that it's impossible to tell because we won't know for years.

When it came to supporting their arguments, they needed no evidence. But when facts pop up supporting the other side of the argument they complain there aren't enough facts.

As for your estimate on how much additional cost there was from a hundred or so arrests, please don't forget that the majority of those would have been handled by the force that was in town specifically for that purpose. You're double counting the cost in both the security bill, and your assumption for costs. It would be more accurate to deduct the total cost of the usual number of arrests from the cost for the olympics as that would have been spent regardless.

emd By emd

Ah, another "discussion" that devolves into trying to figure out what CK/Temple/IN said/didn't
said, mean/didn't mean.

emd By emd

"Especially when its wasted on people cheering over something as pointless as an invisible line
on a map. But I've never been much of a flag-waver, given the ultimately divisive nature of
patriotism."

I was extremely proud to be a Canadian and a local during the games and I think that that
coming together will be the BEST legacy from the games. Divisive nature of patriotism my
ass...ain't nuthin' wrong with cheering for your country and showing your patriotism.

^ Those two posts are funny.

Irony aside, your first point is a good one.

"As for your estimate on how much additional cost there was from a hundred or so arrests, please don't forget that the majority of those would have been handled by the force that was in town specifically for that purpose. "

I was thinking more of the court time and associated costs, etc we will be incurring to see those arrests through to their resolution. I'm not aware of any contingency in the 2010 budget for that. Was there some expectation and consequent budgeting for the increased assaults and so forth?

"I'm pointing out the outright hypocrisy of being fully prepared to deride the olympics based on conjecture, but the moment that someone says that it appears to have been successful they state that it's impossible to tell because we won't know for years."

Did you have a problem with VANOC claiming the Games would be a success before the event, despite the evidence from Turin and other Olympics that it could easily turn out to be a giant money pit?

"I was extremely proud to be a Canadian and a local during the games and I think that that coming together will be the BEST legacy from the games. Divisive nature of patriotism my ass...ain't nuthin' wrong with cheering for your country and showing your patriotism."

What made you proudest EMD? The opening ceremonies produced by an Aussie, the German-engineered luge track, the borderless corporation's sponsorship? What about the contributions of the European-based IOC which undoubtedly had final say on pretty much the whole she-bang?

This one seems most appropriate. Link goes to a bunch of others.

H. L. Mencken:
"In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell."

Keam: "What made you proudest EMD? The opening ceremonies produced by an Aussie, the
German-engineered luge track, the borderless corporation's sponsorship? What about the
contributions of the European-based IOC which undoubtedly had final say on pretty much the
whole she-bang?"

Ha! 'Your pride is unjustified, you shouldn't be proud.'

Trolly McTrollerson is exceedingly hungry today.

For me it was the Chinese made mittens that had me glowing with pride.

Patriotism is nonsense. You could poll a thousand people from a hundred countries and ask them what makes their country special and chances are most of the answers would be so similar as to be indistinguishable. You could take an individual of any citizenship and in a very short time have them switch allegiances with proven indoctrination techniques.

I know of no more potent and foolish mish-mash of brand loyalty and self-delusion than that of patriotism. Sorry, I know that's a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of people, but there's a reason they don't invoke common sense and enlightened self-interest before they hand you a rifle and tell you the guy wearing the enemy's insignia is inherently a bad person.

"Each nation feels superior to other nations. That breeds patriotism - and wars."
Dale Carnegie

Patriotism as we see it now is stupid, but it's been around since the dawn of people gathering into groups. It's not going anywhere. The flag might change, the song might change, the idea is not.

kermit: "For me it was the Chinese made mittens that had me glowing with pride."

I know a lot of great Canadians that were 'made in China'.

I'm impressed that you managed to deride patriotism in a sentence dripping with xenophobia.

Xenophobia? I don't think that means what you think it means...

Your first sentence--I don't even get. Explain?

Any learned behaviour can be unlearned and abandoned.

Russia went from Canada's ally to enemy and now to some indeterminate status again in less than a hundred years. We're not dealing with immutable laws here, just the ways in which people are manipulated for reasons which rarely have anything to do with their well-being.

Too often people confuse customs and traditions to mean patriotism... and because we've been taught to believe patriotism is a good thing, we embrace it. But, if one reads the long list of quotes I linked to upthread, it's very educational to see just how many highly intelligent people consider patriotism a blight on humankind.

One world, one sky. As a friend of mine says, if you've got thumbs, then we are brothers.

"I know a lot of great Canadians that were 'made in China'."

Which just goes to show how nonsensical and arbitrary the very idea of nationality and patriotism is. If your patriotism is in flux with every change of address, it's clearly not worth a damn.

It's great to stand up for one's principles and ideals, but if your allegiance to King and Country is as malleable as that of an NHLer on the trading block then you can be bought too cheap and will pay too dearly for the privilege of being manipulated.

kermit: "Xenophobia? I don't think that means what you think it means..."

What possible relevance could the country of manufacture of the mitten have on the pride or
nationalism of those that happen to be wearing that product? Must their pride somehow be
lessened because they are wearing a mitten made in China, or painted their face with
Chinese-made paint?

If a Chinese person wrote a poem about Canada, or painted a mural highlighting the beauty
of Vancouver, should we look at that and think "hmm, yeah, that might be a good poem or
piece of art, but let's not forget that it's Chinese, so that should take away from it's
symbolism, message, or the enjoyability that a Canadian should feel when experiencing it"?

I see that as xenophobia at best, racism at worst.

Whatever you say champ. I'd rather buy locally made mittens be they BC or Washington and show my 'pride' by supporting sustainable community/locally made products rather than hypocritically wearing Chinese made mittens and wrapping myself in a Bengali made Canadian flag and laughably claiming to be patriotic.

CK re: Post 60
You ask "Did you have a problem with VANOC claiming the Games would be a success before the event, despite the evidence from Turin and other Olympics that it could easily turn out to be a giant money pit? "

It seems you misunderstand me. I'm saying that those individuals that are complaining that we shouldn't judge the olympic successes are useless hypocrites because of their flipflop on the criteria for whether we can discuss somethign as a success/failure to suit their own agenda.

So can you tell me how your response is related to that position? Or did you misunderstand what I clearly laid out? Or are you intentionally misrepresenting?

"It seems you misunderstand me. I'm saying that those individuals that are complaining that we shouldn't judge the olympic successes are useless hypocrites because of their flipflop on the criteria for whether we can discuss somethign as a success/failure to suit their own agenda. "

No offence, but it's kind of a mushy paragraph. I've read the above quote a few times and am still trying to figure out exactly what you mean. Can you provide an example of this before/after change of criteria?

Certainly one claim of 2010 proponents, that we will experience a long-term boost in tourism and economic activity, does demand a longer-range assessment and can't be deemed true or false at this point by either side.

"What possible relevance could the country of manufacture of the mitten have on the pride or nationalism of those that happen to be wearing that product? Must their pride somehow be lessened because they are wearing a mitten made in China, or painted their face with Chinese-made paint?"

If a mark of patriotism is supporting the Canadian economy, then the country of manufacture should be important to a patriot, esp. if we have the ability to create those products at home. If the mittens or paint are created through the labour of political prisoners or children, or in an unsafe factory (all clear non-starters according to Cdn values) then, again, it is important.

"If a Chinese person wrote a poem about Canada, or painted a mural highlighting the beauty of Vancouver, should we look at that and think "hmm, yeah, that might be a good poem or piece of art, but let's not forget that it's Chinese, so that should take away from it's symbolism, message, or the enjoyability that a Canadian should feel when experiencing it?"

Art is entirely subjective. There's no appropriate amount of 'enjoyability' one 'should' feel in response to a piece of art... a reality that becomes painfully clear when trying to find a date for Friday night's experimental music concert at the Western Front :-(

Further, a post-modern approach holds that both the identity of the creator and the viewer play a role in the work's interpretation. One can point to the controversy W.P. Kinsella generates when he writes about native people, or our distaste for 'blackface' acts as proof that the identity of the artist is often a criteria for our assessment of a work's 'authenticity.' What one should feel or think w/r/t any artistic work is a purely personal experience. Great artists are considered so because of their ability to evoke a reasonably universal response in their audience.

Wait! Did you know that there's a direct correlation between the decline of Spirograph and the rise in gang activity? Think about it.

emd By emd

"What made you proudest EMD? The opening ceremonies produced by an Aussie, the German-
engineered luge track, the borderless corporation's sponsorship? What about the contributions
of
the European-based IOC which undoubtedly had final say on pretty much the whole she-bang?
"

I bet every glass is half-empty to you, eh CK?

I am proud of how well run it was. I am proud of our athletes. I am proud of how much fun
we
all had. I am proud of how complimentary everyone was about us and our wonderful city.

I enjoyed the Olympics. My name is EMD and I. AM. CANADIAN.

p.s. the definition of patriotism, "love for your country and loyalty towards it" sounds just
about right to me. I do love my country and I do show loyalty towards it. If you considers
those sentiments dumb, or nonsense, well, then so be it.

"I bet every glass is half-empty to you, eh CK? "

You know me better than that.

"I am proud of how well run it was. I am proud of our athletes. I am proud of how much fun we all had. I am proud of how complimentary everyone was about us and our wonderful city."

You can be proud of all those things without being a patriot.

"the definition of patriotism, "love for your country and loyalty towards it" sounds just about right to me. I do love my country and I do show loyalty towards it. If you considers those sentiments dumb, or nonsense, well, then so be it. "

If you moved to another country, would you change your allegiance?

Patriotism is a celebration of the blind chance of being born on one side or the other of an imaginary line.

How do you feel about Canadians coaching other curling teams? Sounds distinctly unpatriotic to me.

(Actually I couldn't care less)

Keam: "How do you feel about Canadians coaching other curling teams? Sounds distinctly
unpatriotic to me."

I had the great opportunity to work with the athletes and coaches at the curling facility during
the Olympics and Paralympics. Most teams had a Canadian coach, some had Scottish coaches
(the accents caught me off-guard on occasion, it was fun).

On the whole, I was thoroughly impressed with just how much SOTG that the curling teams
(and coaches, physios, team leaders, etc) showed in their interactions with each other, both
on the ice and off. I was very clearly left with the notion that curlers, at the absolute highest
level of competition, showed more SOTG than 90% of the ultimate players in any div in the
VUL.

The Canadian-born coaches are growing the sport world-wide, they are raising the competition
level and all teams, including teams Canada, were grateful and supportive of that.

When Team China Women won bronze at their first Olympics, it was a sign that the worldwide
competition level in women's curling is growing stronger, and that health is something that all
participants benefit from. Many of the other teams (men's and women's) were genuinely
happy for them, and congratulative of their Canadian coach. The Chinese girls of course were
ecstatic.

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer your question. "How do you feel about Canadians coaching
other curling teams?"

Incredibly proud.

All those things are grand, but have nothing to do with patriotism, which is the subject of the question I posed.

emd By emd

Aside...this forum software sucks donkey balls...

"If you moved to another country, would you change your allegiance?"

You think you can only be patriotic about one country at a time? If I moved, I would still feel
loyalty and love towards Canada, just like I feel loyalty and love to Scotland, my historical
country. And I would most likely be loyal towards my new country, yes.

The fact that I add another entity (??) to feel loyalty towards doesn't make patriotism invalid,
in my mind. Loyalty and love are good things...why limit yourself?

Keam: "All those things are grand, but have nothing to do with patriotism, which is the
subject of the question I posed."

How arrogant can you be to suggest that I'm not proud that Canada is teaching one of the
sports we're good at to the world?

Your rationale smacks of 'with us or against us' thinking, that helping another country
somehow hurts or flies against my love of Canada. I don't think like that. In fact, I think
those kinds of acts are laudable. Pity you can't see that, or, pity you choose to ignore that so
that you can troll more effectively.

Part of the reason I'm patriotic is that Canada doesn't hold its expertise to its chest, rather it
shares it with the world.

You argue that the above doesn't factor into my own patriotism. Do you realize how foolish
you sound when you argue that? Are you going to argue the specific reasons I love my wife
next?

"You think you can only be patriotic about one country at a time?"

That's certainly the generally accepted definition.

"How arrogant can you be to suggest that I'm not proud that Canada is teaching one of the sports we're good at to the world?"

You can be whatever you want to be. You can't misrepresent what I said or the question I posed however. Reread the question and you'll see I asked about Canadians coaching teams from other countries in a competition where we keep score by which nation has the most medals. To aid and abet the 'enemy' is very unpatriotic.

"How arrogant can you be to suggest that I'm not proud that Canada is teaching one of the sports we're good at to the world?" Your rationale smacks of 'with us or against us' thinking, that helping another country somehow hurts or flies against my love of Canada. I don't think like that."

Then you are not a patriot. For a fellow who constantly castigates others for arguing the rules without knowing them fully, you might consider learning what the definition of a patriot is before you argue for or against it.

Pronunciation: \?p?-tr?-?t, -?ät, chiefly British ?pa-tr?-?t\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French patriote compatriot, from Late Latin patriota, from Greek patri?t?s, from patria lineage, from patr-, pat?r father
Date: 1605

: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

I look forward to the convoluted rationale you will provide explaining how helping one's competitors is a patriotic act.

Patriots say things like this:
"my country, right or wrong"

Pacifists say things like this:
"Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do"

Keam: "That's certainly the generally accepted definition."

Citation needed.

Your concept of patriotism, perhaps even love, is warped beyond recognition.

Keam: "To aid and abet the 'enemy' is very unpatriotic."

You *are* arguing that I am not patriotic because we help others at the Olympics, despite the
fact that I say that's part of the reason I love Canada. You sir are a joke.

--

Aside... this forum does suck. An ignore button would do wonders for the general tone and I bet
even the amount of participation on this forum. Unfortunately many of us, myself included, don't
have the strength to resist the bait of such an expert Troll.

"Citation needed."

Citation provided in my edited response.

"Your concept of patriotism, perhaps even love, is warped beyond recognition."

Careful tiger. Love doesn't need a map or a flag, or red mittens to manifest itself.

Too bad you obviously didn't read any of the quotes I linked to upthread (I've linked to them again in the vain hope you might actually pay attention to a bunch of fools like Einstein, Bernard Shaw. Socrates, etc, etc. etc.)

I'd sooner align myself with some of the greatest minds that ever walked the earth over some dude who thinks a clear head equals a warped mind.

Since I have some time to kill before supper is ready...

"You *are* arguing that I am not patriotic because we help others at the Olympics, despite the fact that I say that's part of the reason I love Canada. You sir are a joke."

Good sportsmanship has nothing to do with nationality or flag. It was a Scandinavian coach who gave a Cdn cross-country skier a ski-pole at Turin to help them win a medal. Aussies are incredibly good sports as rule. It's America that leads the pack when it comes to helping out when the stakes are truly high. So quit pretending the most basic acts of human goodness are the sole purview of Canada, get off your high horse, and stop drinking the Kool-aid.

Why don't you make a thread about patriotism? I'll be happy to join in and explain why you can be patriotic and love your country but acknowledge greatness in others as well.

I'm sure all parents think their sons and daughters are the best things to walk the earth, and I see no reason why to each of them that's not possible.

Nothing in your definition leads me to believe that patriotism is exclusive of others.

Look, you guys can come up with a million different definitions of patriotism to suit your own beliefs, but at its core, the concept concerns putting your own country first. Whether you recognize the achievements of other countries is irrelevant. This is like trying to discuss hunting and having someone tell you that it includes golf.

Define it however you like. If you claim to be a patriot you're supporting an idea that has had blood on its hands since it first reared its warlike head. Enjoy. Link goes to the usual result of patriots doing what they do best. Take a good long look.

https://jspivey.wikispaces.com/file/view/napalm_drop.jpg/34487167/napalm...

The original question posted seems to have gotten lost, but I couldn't resist none the less…

""Patriotism is love and devotion to one's country. The word comes from the Greek patris, meaning fatherland. Patriotism, however, has had different meanings over time, and its meaning is highly dependent upon context, geography, and philosophy.

Although patriotism is used in certain vernaculars as a synonym for nationalism, nationalism is not necessarily considered an inherent part of patriotism. Among the ancient Greeks, patriotism consisted of notions concerning language, religious traditions, ethics, law, and devotion to the common good, rather than pure identification with a nation-state. Scholar J. Peter Euben writes that for the Greek philosopher Socrates, "patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does and would actually promote analytical questioning in a quest to make the country the best it possibly can be."

In the Hindu epic Ramayana, Lord Rama tells Lakshmana Janani Janma Bhoomischa Swargadapi Gariyasi (Mother and Motherland are greater than heaven), which greatly lays the foundation for consciousness of patriotism for Hindus.

During the 18th century Age of Enlightenment, the notion of patriotism continued to be separate from the notion of nationalism. Instead, patriotism was defined as devotion to humanity and beneficence. For example, providing charity, criticizing slavery, and denouncing excessive penal laws were all considered patriotic. In both ancient and modern visions of patriotism, individual responsibility to fellow citizens is an inherent component of patriotism.

Many contemporary notions of patriotism are influenced by 19th century ideas about nationalism. During the 19th century, "being patriotic" became increasingly conflated with nationalism and even jingoism. However, some notions of contemporary patriotism reject nationalism in favour of a more classic version of the idea of patriotism which includes social responsibility...""

Re: post 87.

Scandanavian coach. Aussies. Americans. You are grouping people by their borders, something you seem to abhor as a concept. I'm not sure which way to interpret what you are saying, as I'm getting confused on a pretty regular basis.

Canada certainly does not hold the monopoly on awesomeness, but I'd hazard a guess that a good number of people would agree that we at least have a good solid market share in Awesome, Inc.

"Scandanavian coach. Aussies. Americans. You are grouping people by their borders, something you seem to abhor as a concept."

I was trying to point out that the qualities the self-confessed patriots were lauding as Canadian attributes are trans-national and pan-cultural.

"we at least have a good solid market share in Awesome, Inc. "

Have you ever met a patriot who felt otherwise about their country or nationality?

You will never meet a patriot who feels otherwise, since patriot seems to be defined as someone who loves their country. You will, however, meet people who live in a particular country who don't think it's so awesome.

Keam: "I was trying to point out that the qualities the self-confessed patriots were lauding as
Canadian attributes are trans-national and pan-cultural."

Who said those qualities were exclusively Canadian? I said I loved Canada partly because we
show sportsmanship from time to time. Where does that relate to: "Well, Norwegians are
sportsmanlike too, so that's not a valid reason for loving Canada."

I love my wife partly because she's smart, funny, beautiful, and incredibly tolerant of my
terrible jokes. Are you going to cite another smart, funny, and/or beautiful woman and
suggest that my love of those qualities of hers are any less valid?

You are looking more and more foolish trying to dig yourself out of the hole you've dug by
arguing that people don't love their country for the reasons they say they do.

To go back to the Olympics, I'd rather we lose with sportsmanship than win at all costs. I'm
proud that Canada has shown tendencies to help others instead of gaining a competitive
advantage by keeping that expertise close to its chest. I love that Canada shows that kind of
character along with many other nations at the Olympics.

Love is not a zero sum game. Loving one thing does not necessitate that you act with any
less love or generosity to others. Helping one that is not your love, does not necessarily hurt
the one you love, regardless of what any given scoreboard says.

You don't seem to understand this. Your posts in this thread demonstrate a lack of
understanding of the simple concept of love.

"To go back to the Olympics, I'd rather we lose with sportsmanship than win at all costs. I'm proud that Canada has shown tendencies to help others instead of gaining a competitive advantage by keeping that expertise close to its chest. I love that Canada shows that kind of character along with many other nations at the Olympics."

People from anywhere help people from anywhere else all the time, I'm not sure why it takes something like the olympics to make you proud or acknowledge this, or why you feel canada is exclusive or special in that regard.

"You don't seem to understand this. Your posts in this thread demonstrate a lack of understanding of the simple concept of love."

As if it's such a clear definable concept? Give me a break.

Temple: "Who said those qualities were exclusively Canadian? I said I loved Canada partly
because we show sportsmanship from time to time. Where does that relate to: "Well,
Norwegians are sportsmanlike too, so that's not a valid reason for loving Canada.""

Kermit: "People from anywhere help people from anywhere else all the time, I'm not sure
why it takes something like the olympics to make you proud or acknowledge this, or why you
feel canada is exclusive or special in that regard."

Read the post you quoted. Canada is not exclusive in this, nor does it take an Olympics to
make me proud of Canada. However, I am proud of the actions we perform at the Olympics.

This is not a hard concept.

Cynical trolls are trying so, so hard in this thread. Instead their posts are laughable.

If it's not exclusively Canadian, then why does the flag matter?

as for being a cynical troll, if you need to resort to name calling, be my guest. doesn't do much for your argument though.

kermit: "If it's not exclusively Canadian, then why does the flag matter?"

I love my cat. She is affectionate. Other cats are affectionate. Does that mean I shouldn't love
that my cat is affectionate?

Do you really not understand how you can love something for its good qualities that may be
shared by others?

You're either trolling hard, incredibly cynical, or likely both.

But please, tell us all more about how we don't love the things we love. *rollseyes*

I don't think anyone is saying you don't love the thing you love--that's not the question/point. I'm not discussing love here, patriotism is the topic.

You love that Canadians can be nice, that makes you feel patriotic, ok, great. You acknowledge other people can be nice too. ok, gotcha.

What I don't understand is why you (and many others) feel the need to wrap yourself in the Canadian flag and gush at how nice we are, how patriotic we are, when it's a common trait globally.

I get that it's fun to cheer for your country with whom you may or may not share common traits. But the problem is patriotism can sure get ugly when it's not something as pleasing as olympic luge. It's just another means to divide people. Perhaps in this case for fun, too often for war.

Now can you stop being sarcastic have a discussion? Or is this pointless...

I think there are a few reasons for this.

1) Because it's "ours". Like why you like your cat. Is it cuter? Maybe, is it furrier? Maybe. But it's yours. You have common experiences with the cat (country) which makes your relationship with it more personal.

2) Because it's limited in scope: You can effect change in varying degrees by scope. I can basically rule my play-room. I can make many many choices in my house, I have some say in my community. Less say in my city, even less in the province, and even a small bit in the Country. My country listens to me, and my vote goes to the direction of Canada. So I help direct it's greatness. If enough people feel that X should be done in Canada, we can get that going.

3) It's fun!: Often when I talk to people who don't watch sports, they don't understand why I'd cheer for the Canucks over whomever is visiting. (Or Canada vs. USA in hockey). If you don't care who wins I can see why sports are boring for you. But once you pick a side, you can get enormous personal enjoyment out of cheering and participating rather than just academically watching 2 teams.

So, common experience and bond, ability to impact, and fun are all great reasons to limit your scope to a single country.

As for CK's argument. He's provided links to definitions of patriotism, and then DIRECTLY contradicted those links and stated "Well you're not going by the generally accepted definition of patriotism". That's the strange thing that I think Temple is fixated on. While he, and his circle of friends, might agree on their brand of patriotism, according to the definitions provided, Temple and my interpretations (which are probably slightly different) appear more accurate.

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