Pick Calls

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#1

I've ran into a few pick interpretation conflicts this
season and would like someone to confirm whether
my interpretation of the following situation is correct.

Pick was called by a defender that did not affect play.
However, the thrower did not acknowledge the pick
(could not hear or other reasons) and throws the
disc. This might have been 3-5 seconds after the
pick was called. Throw was complete.

My interpretation is that the disc stays with the
receiver since it did not affect play.

I have heard team arguing that the pick was called x
seconds ago and we have stopped play.

One team also said that this year it has changed. It
does not matter if the pick affected play or not, the
disc still goes back to the thrower after a completed
pass.

I've read the rule quite a few times, and I think my
interpretation is correct. But I'll be happy if someone
confirms or correct me.

Thanks.

You're correct, Felix. Under 11th Ed. USAU rules, the Continuation Rule applies to picks, and if the pick did not affect the outcome of the play, then the disc stays with the receiver.

It was different in the 10th as I recall, and WFDF still uses a old version, but you're correct according to the rules the VUL plays by.

Indeed, the usual justification of "I stopped when I heard the pick call, so it did affect the play"
is specifically addressed by XVI.K:

"A player's ability to catch or make a play on the disc is not considered to be affected because
that player stopped, slowed down, or otherwise ceased to continue playing because a call was
made by another player. Players are encouraged to make every effort to continue playing until
play actually stops."

Also worth noting is that while this did change with the adoption of the 11th edition rule set, that
was in 2007, I believe, and definitely not this year.

Ultimate Rules Law No. 12: There is an inverse correlation with how well somebody knows the
rules and how much they argue the rules.

At first blush this seems to make it a good strategy for a handler to ignore the pick call, look for a teammate whose check has backed off due to the call, throw to the open player and then say, 'hey, you're supposed to play until the play stops.'

"Players are encouraged to make every effort to continue playing until play actually stops."

bizarrely recursive sentence. If you continue playing, then play hasn't stopped

Yeah, that line should probably refer back to XVI.C for clarity's sake.

JDD By JDD

@BikerCK:
As mentioned by atanarjuat, see the relevant line in XVI.C.: "Play stops when the thrower in possession acknowledges that an infraction has been called."

So only the thrower can stop play; with that in mind XIV.K means that everyone else should continue playing until play is stopped by the thrower.

Also it is not a legal strategy for the thrower to ignore any call:
"XIX.F When a call is made, throwers must stop play by visibly or audibly communicating the stoppage as soon as they are aware of the call and all players should echo calls on the field."

If an oppoent feels a thrower must have been aware there was a call (it was loud enough, echoed by players close to the thrower, etc.) and ignored it, they could call violation under this rule and the pass would come back.

Thanks everyone for your response. That definitely clears it up for me.

Keam: "bizarrely recursive sentence. If you continue playing, then play hasn't stopped"

There are lots of defined terms and explanations in the rules, reading any one rule or line in
isolation may not work. When you consider the state of the disc and how Play can Stop
automatically, the sentence not only makes sense, but is very good advice to any player.

--

JDD: "Also it is not a legal strategy for the thrower to ignore any call..."

Nailed it there. Intentionally violating any rule can give a player an advantage, but that's
cheating. No rule will ever prevent cheating.

--

JDD: "So only the thrower can stop play; with that in mind XIV.K means that everyone else
should continue playing until play is stopped by the thrower."

Not quite. The thrower in possession at the time of the call can cause Play to Stop by
acknowledging the call, but Play also Stops automatically at the first end of flight after a call.

Meaning that regardless of *anything* else that occurs, the moment a disc stops flying after a
call, Play is Stopped.

So, after a call, you play on as hard as you can. Nothing has changed, whether the O retains the
disc or not will likely affect possession after the resolution of the play. You play on until either the
thrower acknowledges the call or until the end of that first flight.

JDD By JDD

Oops, yes, play does normally stop automatically once the first pass after/during the call is caught (assuming a pick call or other call against the offence), and this doesn't need the thrower in question to stop it. Good catch.

Of course if that first pass is *not* caught (after a pick or other offensive foul/violation), play does not stop; players should call "play on" and play continues. [Ditto for if there is a defensive foul/violation and the pass *is* caught; though that's somewhat off-topic as the subject here is picks.]

JDD" "Of course if that first pass is *not* caught (after a pick or other offensive foul/violation), play
does not stop; players should call "play on" and play continues."

Absolutely correct.

I don't know why I often omit the play on situation. Maybe it's that in my mind it has something to do
with my thinking the call doesn't matter and is ignored (effectively).

Since this thread doesn't really seem to be about picks anymore I
have a couple questions/clarifications to ask.

1) Since play stops when a thrower acknowledges the call, that means
play has to automatically stop if the THROWER makes the call since
the thrower has to acknowledge their own call right? And exactly
when/where play stops (before the throw, after the throw) is accordance
to XVI.C?

2) So if a thrower sees a foul (marking foul), does that mean the
thrower can get a free pass by calling the foul as they make the throw?
According to XVI.C, if the thrower was in the act of throwing, a complete
pass is play on and an incomplete pass is BTT so the thrower has
nothing to lose.

sansera: "1) Since play stops when a thrower acknowledges the call, that means play has to
automatically stop if the THROWER makes the call since the thrower has to acknowledge their own
call right? And exactly when/where play stops (before the throw, after the throw) is accordance to
XVI.C?"

Well, for a Marker foul the Call will often be made after the disc is released, as the foul and the
release are nearly simultaneous.

For all Calls, if there's no throw, play Stops when the Thrower acknowledges the call (making a call
is equal to acknowledging a call, obviously). XVI.C has a lot of if-branches, but it deals with all the
possible scenarios.

--

sansera: "2) So if a thrower sees a foul (marking foul), does that mean the thrower can get a free
pass by calling the foul as they make the throw? According to XVI.C, if the thrower was in the act of
throwing, a complete pass is play on and an incomplete pass is BTT so the thrower has nothing to
lose."

No that's not how it works (thankfully).

There's a key difference between XVI.C.1 (Thrower-made calls) and XVI.C.2 (Non-Thrower-made
calls). For calls by the non-Thrower, when the *Call was made* is what matters. However, for calls
made by the Thrower, when the *infraction occurred* is what matters.

This is a good thing. In your scenario, if the Thrower gets fouled and then tries a pass, the best that
can happen for the O is for the disc to come back, but if it's not completed, it's a Turn Over. No free
throws.

"1) Since play stops when a thrower acknowledges the call, that means play has to automatically stop if the THROWER makes the call since the thrower has to acknowledge their own call right? And exactly when/where play stops (before the throw, after the throw) is accordance to XVI.C? "

Though not explicit in the rules, common sense would dictate so.

"2) So if a thrower sees a foul (marking foul), does that mean the thrower can get a free pass by calling the foul as they make the throw? According to XVI.C, if the thrower was in the act of throwing, a complete pass is play on and an incomplete pass is BTT so the thrower has nothing to lose. "

Yes and no. This is why coaches encourage throwers to "throw through the foul" whenever possible; that is, don't give up on a throw just because you were fouled as you attempted it. Bear in mind, though, that a foul must still be called "immediately" and during a throwing motion -- the thrower cannot postpone an infraction call so as to call it during a subsequent throwing motion instead.

atanarjuat: "Yes and no."

Actually, it's just "No." The thrower can never get a "free throw" by throwing after they are Fouled.

--

atanarjuat: "This is why coaches encourage throwers to "throw through the foul" whenever
possible; that is, don't give up on a throw just because you were fouled as you attempted it."

If you're fouled during your throw, your team is going to retain possession, assuming you call it.
It's better to retain a completed pass than one back at the thrower, but this is true for all fouls (all
throws even?). That isn't really related to the free-throw scenario presented.

--

atanarjuat: "Bear in mind, though, that a foul must still be called "immediately" and during a
throwing motion -- the thrower cannot postpone an infraction call so as to call it during a
subsequent throwing motion instead."

Agreed that the thrower is not allowed to intentionally postpone a call, but "immediately" as it's
used in the rules in this case can sometimes legitimately include a delay long enough to start a
throwing motion.

Further, there's no rule which requires that the call must be made during a throwing motion.

Regardless of the above, when the thrower makes the call doesn't make a difference, and delaying
(purposefully or not) cannot help the thrower. See my post above which explains why there is no
possible advantage in such behaviour.

"Actually, it's just "No." The thrower can never get a "free throw" by throwing AFTER they are Fouled." (emphasis mine)

I know. I'm making an allowance that Sansera's scenario could include a foul in the throwing motion, as it was not excluded, in my mind.

Ah, I didn't see that scenario in his question at all.

excuse my late chime-in...

Earlier in this thread: "...seems to make it a good strategy for a handler to ignore the pick call..."

11th Ed: "XIX.F [...] throwers must stop play [...] as soon as they are aware of the call [...]"

So no, this is NOT a good strategy.

If that next pass happens after the thrower becomes aware of the call, then the pass should come back, regardless of whether the play was affected. I have called this violation before (and upheld it as an observer) if I believe, based on my perception, that the thrower was, or likely was, aware of the call.

This is one of the best reasons for all players to echo the calls on the field, especially including the marker echoing it directly at the thrower... once this happens, the thrower should not be able to claim they weren't aware.