Pick/Injury

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#1

Scenario:

Team A forces turnover, picks up disc and launches a deep throw.
While winding up to throw, "pick" is called due to collision between
defensive and offensive player well away from the play. Deep throw
is turned over.

Team B picks up the disc and initiates offense, unaware that an injury
has been called by Team A due to the collision. In trying to hold back
the ensuing throw upon hearing the injury call, the disc is thrown
away.

Team A argues that the pick and the injury were simultaneous and
that as a result the thrower who turned over the deep pass should get
the disc back. They also argue that they should gain possession of the
disc where Team B turned it over after the injury call.

Team B argues that the this remains their disc as Team A turned the
disc over while the pick was occurring and that the injury call was
subsequent to this. Team B further states that all play must stop when
an injury call occurs thus it should remain their disc regardless of the
subsequent throw away (particularly given that the turnover was due
to the attempt to stop play due to the injury call).

Relevant rules:

VI Time-outs, C - Injury Time-out.1,2 and 3.
XVI Violations and Fouls, C - Continuation Rule and I - Picks

Thoughts?

Team B's disc at the location where they pick it up in your second paragraph.

VI.C.2-
The time-out is retroactive to the time of the injury, unless the injured player chooses to continue play before the time-out is called, in which case, the time-out begins at the time of the call. If the disc is in the air or the thrower is in the act of throwing at the time of the injury or of the call when the player has continued play, the time-out begins when the play is completed.

Ivar, your resolution requires some assumptions that aren't borne out by the post. The
resolution is certainly not definite, and I'd even guess is unlikely correct. From what I read of
the post, it would only be correct if the injured player continued after the injury.

If the injured player continued playing before calling the Injury Time out, then play
Stops relative to the Call. If they did not continue playing, then play Stops relative to when
the injury occurred (VI.C.2). It's not clear from the description which case occurred.

Regardless of whether it was the Call or the injury that the Stoppage was relative to, if that
occurred during the thrower's windup, but not the actual throwing motion in the direction of
flight, then that throw occurred while play was Stopped.

II.T.3) The act of throwing is the motion that transfers momentum from the thrower to the
disc in the direction of flight and results in a throw. Pivots and wind-ups are not part of the
act of throwing.

So in effect if the injury (or Call after continued play) occurs during the windup, then that
throw never happened (VI.C.2). That throw and anything that might occur after it have
absolutely no bearing on anything.

If the player was injured before the throwing motion (not windup) and didn't continue playing,
then it is the original thrower's disc at the spot where he was when the injury occurs.
Everybody resets to where they were when the injury occurred.

If the player was injured after the thrower started his throwing motion (again, not windup),
then play is Stopped at the moment that disc's flight ends. Whether complete or not, nothing
which occurs after that disc stops matters whatsoever. So, Team B would gain possession
wherever the disc stopped after the original throw.

For clarification, the injured player did not continue playing following the collision.

I can't say whether the collision occurred during wind-up or the act of throwing, as I wasn't looking at thrower. It was definitely before release, that's all I know, because I saw the girl hit the ground and then saw the disc go up. The original poster seems clear it was during wind-up, so I assume that was the case.

The whole thing seemed like a case of arguing when play stops...at the collision or at the call, which in this case, started with a "pick" call and then an "injury" call.

The resolution, on the field, was eventually "back to thrower" (not because that's what everyone agreed to...it was due to lack of agreement). From Temple's post, seems like that was the right call in the end. Unfortunately, another stoppage occured 5 seconds later when the Team A handler asked if everyone was in position, asked the picked player specifically if he needed to catch up, was told "no", so the marker checked the disc in. The Team B player who was downfield where the huck turned over yelled to his picked teammate "no, catch up!!" and then yelled Violation to stop play and get his teammate to catch up to his check.

Temple, is there a relevant rule around defence calling Violations on their own teammates for not marking up when given the opportunity to do so by offence?

"Temple, is there a relevant rule around defence calling Violations on their own teammates
for not marking up when given the opportunity to do so by offence?"

First of all, you cannot call a Violation/Foul against your own team (I choose to ignore this
rule only if I see truly Dangerous Play by my own team). Secondly, the picked player is not
forced to "catch up", often they are not even allowed to "catch up". Rather they are
permitted to (not required to) recover the distance lost by the pick.

XVI.I.3) If play stops according to XVI.C, players reposition according to XVI.C.4. In addition,
the obstructed player is then allowed to move to recover the relative position lost because of
the pick.

Perhaps that Violation was being called against the thrower, but that's still no good.

The thrower is in no way obligated to make sure the Defense is set/ready before Checking the
disc. Nobody is in fact obligated to make sure of this. It is the Marker's responsibility whether
or not to make sure their team is ready before Checking the disc into play.

If the Marker chooses to Check the disc into play before the Defense is ready, that's a dumb
move by the Marker. This is resolved by his teammates teaching him the proper strategy on
the sideline.

--

In short, there's absolutely no justification for calling Violation after a valid Check, because a
picked player didn't recover the ground lost, or rather that the caller assumes was lost, after
a Pick. Sounds like an "I don't like this, I'm going to call something, even though I can't
justify it" scenario (aka: asshattery).

If you don't know the rules, you have to be super sure of the calls you do make.

Temple, I appreciate so much that you took my dripping-with-sarcasm question and gave such a complete answer! It's a good point that the handler isn't even obligated to ask if defence is ready... but that fact that he did and was turned down, made the violation call all the more egregious, in my humble opinion.

CL,

In a way, the offense does have to ask the defense if they're ready, as play can only be restarted after a stoppage following acknowledgement by the defense. You often see a thrower, thinking that resolution has been achieved after a call, smack the disc on the ground and call "disc in." This is entirely wrong, as it is the defense that has the last say in checking the disc. What the offense doesn't have to do is make sure that the defense recognizes what they're doing prior to initiating the check.

Question: "This is entirely wrong, as it is the defense that has the last say in checking the disc."

Does this occur in all stoppages of play? Or specific stoppages of play?

Gin-boh, fair enough... I guess it's the "offence doesn't need to ask, but they do need to stand there and wait until the marker checks it in". The point I meant, and I think Temple meant, is that it's not the handler's responsibility to make sure the defence is properly set up and ready to go... it's the marker's responsibility.

To clarify, because the preceding call was so contentious, the thrower in this case (me) offered the entire defense the opportunity to reposition themselves wherever they like, and specifically suggested the picked player catch up to his check. He chose not to and requested play be continued. After the disc was checked by the marker and thrown to the open receiver, Team B called the violation against their own player for choosing not to catch up.

While i think this was a pretty crappy violation call, i believe it was mostly due to miscommunication on the part of Team B, and not an intentional effort to cheat -- from my perspective, Team B was actually one of the most spirited teams we've played this summer, and i offer you folks big props.

Temple ol' buddy, thanks for your ninja-like rules prowess.

Scire: "Question: "This is entirely wrong, as it is the defense that has the last say in checking
the disc."

Does this occur in all stoppages of play? Or specific stoppages of play?"

Every Stoppage of play. When play is Stopped, play restarts with a Check. A Check is the
Handler offering the disc to the Marker, and the Marker tapping the disc into play.

Offering the disc to the defense is the sole responsibility that the Handler has in a
Check.

If there is no D within reach of the disc, the handler must wait for a member of the defense
to acknowledge readiness (not all, just one D), then tap the disc to the ground announcing "In
Play". This is called an Offensive Self-Check.

Okay. I should have known that. Now, that I think about it, I guess the only reason why I was confused was because I sorta lumped a disc going out of bounds as a stoppage of play.

Is it true when the disc goes out of bounds?

Is that also considered a stoppage of play?

Again, in retrospect, of the same post, *Sigh*, if a disc goes out of bounds you can just self check it without any defensive player around right?

It is just etiquette for the defense to tap it. Right?

I swear I am not stupid... I am just... uhh... slow...

I'm betting neither stupid nor slow. More than likely just a little lazy (aren't we all from time
to time?). Did you look into the rules?

Take a look at II.R: http://www.vul.bc.ca/v3/home/download/UPA11thEd.htm

When a disc goes OB, Play does not Stop. Instead the disc becomes "Live". To put a Live disc
In Play, you must touch the disc to the ground and establish a pivot at that (appropriate)
spot. No action is required by the Defense. This is not a Check, nor is it a Self-Check. Checks
are required only when play Stops. *

There's a common custom that the tapping to the ground is substituted for a tap by a waiting
Defensive player, but this is not required (technically not allowed, but call that and I say
you're a worthless pedant). Further, you're in no way required to wait for the D to tap it. If
they delay even a moment, tap the ground and throw around them. In practice I will always
tap the ground in front of the D, unless they have their hand out obviously waiting to touch it
(net effect to me being zero at that point).

* Don't you just love Capitonyms!