Pull is contacted by OB player

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#1

Hey all,

Hypothetical situation.

Team A pulls the disc towards team B. The pull goes out of bounds, but is curving back in.
A player from team B runs out of bounds 6ft and touches the disc.
Where should the disc be put into play?

IX.E. says "A disc becomes out-of-bounds when it first contacts the out-of-bounds area, contacts an out-of-bounds offensive player, or is caught by an out-of-bounds defensive player."

So, the disc is out-of-bounds when the player contacts it.

I believe VIII.B.6.d)(1) applies which says the receiving team may put the disc into play... at the spot determined by IX.H.

IX.H. says "... the most recent of the following events occurred:
1. the disc completely crossed the perimeter line;
2. the disc contacted an in-bounds player;
3. the disc contacted a defensive player; or
4. the disc became out-of-bounds due to contact with the out-of-bounds area or a player while any part of the disc was inside the perimeter line."

1. Happened at the start of the pull.
2. Didn't happen.
3. I assume that a person on the receiving team is not a defensive player, so didn't happen.
4. Didn't happen.

So, does this mean the disc goes all the way back to where it was crossed the perimeter line?

Does this mean the smart thing to do if you see a pull curving back in is to run out and hit it before it can come back in?

Or is the receiving team considered the defense during the pull so that IX.H.3. applies and none of this matters?

Thanks,
Zaven

Refer to section VIII.B. Pull.

...

8. If a player on the receiving team touches the pull before it hits the ground and the disc then hits the ground, it is considered a dropped disc (XII.B) and results in a turnover.

...

So in your hypothetical situation, it's a turnover, and the team that pulled get's possesion. I believe, based on IX.H., they would take possesion where the disc initially crossed the perimeter line.

If the receiving player caught the disc OB, then the following applies

...

7. If the pull is caught, the disc is put into play at the spot on the playing field nearest to where it was caught.

...

So, don't touch the pull, unless you catch it.

Matt

Ah that makes sense.

I had seen that rule, but falsely assumed it didn't apply to an OB receiver. Also, I had initially wrote up this question as what if you *catch* it OB and then I noticed the VIII.B.7. which said if it's caught then you don't follow IX.H.

Thanks,
Zaven

Matt is correct, but the disc is put into play by team A on the sideline nearest where team B touched the disc (and failed to catch it). That was the most recent OB event culminating in the turnover.

My read of the situation is the disc becomes out-of-bounds when the disc touches the out-of-bounds area.

Using Zaven's logic from the first post with regards to IX.H,

1. Happened at the start of the pull.
2. Didn't happen.
3. I assume that a person on the receiving team is not a defensive player, so didn't happen.
4. Didn't happen.

So, how do you arrive at the conclusion that the disc comes into play nearest where team B touched the disc? Is the receiving team considered offense or defense?

Matt

I was actually thinking of the receiving player as being qualitatively "in-bounds" on the pull (since there is no turnover when the pull is caught OB -- it is "live").

More technically, that is, the receiver is catching a "live" disc, and so it doesn't matter that he is OB or that he immediately drops the live disc OB. If you drop a live disc, it is always put into play on the field proper nearest the drop.

But upon review, I can find no specific mention of that. That's just an opinion, I suppose. So, following the rules to the letter, I guess the only remaining conclusion is that the disc must be put into play where it first crossed the perimeter.

The scenario being discussed is when a member of the receiving team touches and drops the
pull while the disc is completely OB and the player is also OB, and then the disc lands OB
without ever coming IB. I think we agree it's a rare scenario, but still interesting to look at.

Zaven: "I believe VIII.B.6.d)(1) applies which says the receiving team may put the disc into
play... at the spot determined by IX.H."

That rule only applies when the pull is untouched, so it does not apply to this scenario. The
most relevant rule is the following:

VIII.B.8) If a player on the receiving team touches the pull before it hits the ground and the
disc then hits the ground, it is considered a dropped disc (XII.B) and results in a turnover.

What is a dropped disc? A dropped disc which hits the ground is an incomplete pass.

XII.B) If the thrower accidentally drops a live disc or a disc in play without defensive
interference and it contacts the ground before the thrower regains possession, it is considered
an incomplete pass. ...

So, IX.H applies, but not technically to the pull. IX.H applies to the flight of the disc *after*
it was touched/dropped by the receiving team.

While I think it's completely clear that the disc should never go back to where it crossed OB
on the pull, there's still a minor loophole here (and after an OB turnover, when the disc is
being walked IB and is dropped), because none of the conditions of IX.H actually apply if the
disc is thrown/dropped from OB.

In my opinion, it's hard to argue that the disc should be put into play nearest where it comes
to rest OB, and that the disc should be put into play nearest to where it was touched. I think
inherent in IX.H is the idea that the list of most recent evens includes "where the disc was
thrown". I think this is true even despite the fact that "after the disc becomes OB" doesn't
really apply.

If you don't accept the above as the intended interpretation of IX.H then you're going to have
much bigger issues with much more likely scenarios. Imagine a case where the disc was just
turned over OB, I go to retrieve it, walk it to the appropriate spot, but I never really cross
into the field of play. I stick foot on the line and tap the disc on the line, but the disc never
actually "completely crosses the perimeter line". I then throw the disc OB and it never comes
back IB. I'd suggest it's pretty clear that in this case, the disc should come in right where I
tapped it on the line, despite the fact that this scenario shares the same problems with IX.H
as the pull scenario being discussed.

Also consider the fact that XI.I states that events occurring after the dsic becomes OB never
affect where the disc is put into play. That's a basic idea in ultimate. Never does it matter
where the disc rolls to OB.

For those reasons, I'd say that if the pull is touched by the receiving team while both are OB
and the disc never comes back into play, it is a turnover and the disc is brought into play on
the PFP nearest to where the pull was touched.

Agreed that this is mainly a theoretical discussion, interesting to think about.

I disagree that it is completely clear that the disc should never go back to where it crossed OB on the pull. If the receiving team did not touch the disc, the disc would come in where it initially went OB (or, at least the team has this option). So, now with the turnover, why would the location of where the disc gets put into play change?

With respect to your 'bigger issues' comment, the most recent event in IX.H would actually be that the disc contacted an I/B player (the thrower), so not a similar issue. I think this is important to note simply because this scenario is much more common than the dropped pull OB/dropped OB disc while walking back to put disc in play. So the loophole isn't as big as it could be.

Like I said, interesting to think about.

Matt

iamcanuck: "I disagree that it is completely clear that the disc should never go back to where
it crossed OB on the pull. If the receiving team did not touch the disc, the disc would come in
where it initially went OB (or, at least the team has this option). So, now with the turnover,
why would the location of where the disc gets put into play change?"

1. A pull that's touched and dropped "is considered a dropped disc (XII.B)".

It wouldn't generally be considered a dropped disc, but it's very specifically stated that this is
a special case handled that way. So, we are no longer concerned with what occurs on a Pull.

At this point, the resolution is identical to when the disc is dropped while carrying the disc to
the line after a turn over.

2. XII.B (as specifically referenced in a touched/dropped pull rule) states that when a
person drops a disc, it "is considered an incomplete pass".

Even though for practical purposes a MAC/fumble usually isn't usually considered a new throw,
rather as part of a previous throw, in this case, because it is considered a dropped disc, that
barest of touches of the pull, is a new throw.

Therefore:

3. A pull that is touched and not caught is a new throw from the moment it's touched (not a
legal pass, but a throw subject to turnover nonetheless).

It's perfectly specific and clear that even the slightest grazing of a pull which is not caught is
in itself a *new pass* from the moment it's touched.

I don't think there's a tenable argument which suggests that Throw A has any bearing on
where the disc is to be put into play after Throw B is incomplete.

In this scenario the Pull is Throw A which ends the moment it is touched, and the post touch
flight is Throw B. There are other scenarios which are more common in which a throw that
goes OB is Throw A and a drop while carrying it to the line is Throw B.

--

iamcanuck: "With respect to your 'bigger issues' comment, the most recent event in IX.H
would actually be that the disc contacted an I/B player (the thrower), so not a similar issue."

Agreed on this part.