Rules Committee

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Hi everyone -- Art here.

This is a second call for volunteers for the rules committee. 1) we can be involved in proposing changes to the UPA for 10th Ed. Rules 2) we need to train Observers for Nationals this summer.

I't be great to see some people signing up.

my e-mail --

Would the rules committee have any input into the 4-3 split in the VUL?

If the committee wanted to suggest something to the VUL regarding the 4-3 gender ratio, it could do so.

Personally, I see that 4-3 is responsible for the huge growth of the game in Vancouver, and that the best ulti is played at 4-3.

I definitely think that 4-3 works at some levels, especially the higher levels where it's "easier" to recruit women to play on your teams, and the lowest levels, where teams are more social. The majority of teams, between divs 5 and 3, have a great dirth of female players. Those good enough to play in these divisions are often poached by the higher teams because the higher tiers are better so they get to play at a higher level. Simple enough concept. Women on all my teams know that they could move to a higher team if they wanted, most of them are actively being recruited by div 1 and 2 teams because they're competant and are needed for your teams.

Unfortunately this leaves div 3,4,5 teams lacking in the numbers because they've been poached to 1,2 and div 6 and 7 players are generally either just learning (which is great) or just social (which is also great)

The reason why the VUL administration and board don't see this problem is they are all in the div 1/2/elite range, and have no problem getting women to play with them. Unfortunately the majority of players aren't in that position, and also because they haven't been part of the community for very long aren't as active in terms of representation on the committee's. Thus problems with the system are left unaddressed because they're problems with only specific segments of the system.

So the obvious question is "well if I have a problem then why don't I do something about it". The reason why I think it wouldn't be effective use of my time is that the vast majority of the board thinks along the lines of "Hey, there's enough women, 4-3 is the way to go, and it encourages women".

I also agree 4-3 makes for some great Ulti, but I also believe some of the best games I've ever seen are all women, where there's a lot more handling and methodical movement than all men where it's quite often a huckfest. I just simply believe that the gender balance is skewed so far that 4-3 is simply holding back the expansion of the league.

4-3 Rocks! If you have trouble finding enough women, you may want to find out why. If Div. 1-2 were poaching all the women that are no longer playing in the lower Divs, most Div. 1-2 teams would be made up entirely of women. As that isn't the case, a lot of these women have obviously stopped playing (not moved up to Div. 1 - although that certainly does happen some of the time). I'm sure there are many reasons why women stop playing, and as we're all part of the Ulti community, it's important to find out why and address some of the issues if we truly are committed to keeping this primarily a coed sport. Talk to women, get their feedback, and see if you can use some of it. I think you'll find most of them are in it for fun, regardless of what level they play at. Definitions of fun may vary - see individual players for details.

5-2, if that's what you're suggesting, wouldn't be nearly as much fun for the men or the women. There was a suggestion in the Captain's Clinic on Wednesday that I'm going to try at my next couple of games - switching 4/3 for 3/4 every point or couple of points. More women on the field changes the tone of the game and makes it more fun for everyone.

So, don't give up - just keep working at finding ways of making your team (and the sport) one that women are clamouring to play. Then you can share some tips with the rest of us. Or, you can just give up and go play Open. ;)

**they are all in the div 1/2/elite range, and have no problem getting women to play with them***

Assuming that we want expansion of the league, the issue of fields is what will be the problem, not the gender ratio.

Going 5/2 will just mean teams will try to get 4-5 women, and will feel short when they only have 2 or 3. You will still get poached and women will still quit playing due to not getting the disc.

If you want to get your team out of Div 4,5,6, get you women involved in every aspect of your teams game! Get them to handle all the time. Get them to bail you out on the 8 count! Do this and you will be better than 75% of all other Div 4,5,6 teams out there.

Besides, with leagues now popping up in North Van, Burnaby, Tri-Cities and everywhere else, I don't think the gender ratio has hurt expansion. Year 1 of 4/3 had less than 100 teams in the league, we are now over 230.

Now, has Coed in general killed tourning and in turn hurt the development of what could have been a generation of elite players? Yes it has, but that is another topic...

"Now, has Coed in general killed tourning and in turn hurt the development of what could have been a generation of elite players? Yes it has, but that is another topic... "

Ok, I'll bite. Why is that? I'm sure Furious and Prime will be saddened to hear they don't have any elite players on their teams. :) Or are you suggesting that most of their players didn't come up through the VUL system? Either way, you raise an interesting point. Care to elaborate?

This is exactly the problem with the perception out there. You THINK that there are lots of women out there clambouring to play, but if you're in a div 2,3,4 team or whatever 4.5.6 and want someone who can catch and throw, you can't just talk up women on the street. And if you do maybe you'll get a couple interested but especially at 4 you're not going to have a lot of play time because they just don't know how to cut or whatever.

It's amazing how common the perception among div 1 players is that the problem lies in the recruitment process.... I guess you don't play with us unwashed masses enough to realize that women are at a HUGE premium, and being over extended as it is.

Here's a simple piece of evidence. Any woman who can cut and throw can join pretty much any team from div 2 down. I'd bet that 90% of the teams from div 2 down need another woman, or at least would like another woman on their team. I'd bet that 95% of the teams from div 5 up don't want/need another guy.

just check matchmaker....

3 teams looking for a guy, way more looking for a woman, and that's just the ''official'' count, talk to the teams, you'll find that way more are looking for guys.

Check out the ''looking for a team'' page... way more guys....

I enjoy the 4-3, I think that ulti is a great Co-ed sport, but the simple fact is that far more than 4/7ths of the players are male, probably more than 5/7ths.

of course, you guys have no problem picking up women, so I guess that means nobody does.

I think that changing the gender ratio from 4/3 to 5/2 will tend to make it easier for women to be ignored.

Besides, I don't think you should generalize about div 3-5 teams. Our team is in div 5 and we have 8 women on our roster. I also know 3 other teams between div 3 and 5 who actually put a cap on the number of women they have on their roster -- yes, too many women want to play for their teams.

If you think there aren't enough women with experience, you have to be willing to take in some newbies, coach them, and get them involved in your plays. According to you, the rest of the div 3-5 teams will have the same "problem" (i.e inexperienced women).

I think 4/3, and 3/4 on alternate plays makes the most sense. This is true co-ed. This will force teams to play their women as they are more important to the play.

And, women will be more likely to stick with the sport.

If this forces the league to shrink, then designate some days as OPEN, with a hat format. Everyone would be happier :)

There are not enough women to go around. For one person to say "we have 8 women on our team" is meaningless. Your ability to attract women has filled me with spite, but hardly won the argument. The proof of the supply glut is on every Ulti forum. Have you ever seen "Men needed"? I have seen "Male Newbie, fast learner..." no dice for our young man. New females that provide a modicum of interest are lapped up immediately -- often fought over.

This is not unlike the porn industry: the men need to be established; the women need to be (somewhat) willing.

I agree with the poster who points out that the VUL establishment isn't aware of what goes on in div 3 and lower. Also, they are people that like 4-3, so they defend it by deflecting a valid criticism.

I'm not convinced that 4-3 is better or worse than 5-2 from a gameplay perspective. The idea that there might be more poaching could be valid. I don't think it changes the game that much. Having enough players to play is the most important factor.

I was captain of a div 4 team last year (now I play div 1 -- go figure). Anyhow, I had 7 women on my roster, but had 2 show up to most games. Injuries, aches, double-bookings, marriages and poor commitment level brought us to the brink of forfeit every week. I noticed that lower tiered teams do have trouble getting women and that most women play multiple nights a week, whereas guys play less -- as we aren't needed.

To eschew 5-2 because it's not "as good" or "as fair" is ridiculously glib. It should be considered, particularly for the lower tiers and we should get a VUL with a ratio that matches interest level.


Oh, Andrew you're cracking me up over here!

"This is not unlike the porn industry: the men need to be established; the women need to be (somewhat) willing. "

I KNEW there was a reason we were so successful at attracting women - now I know why. Thanks for that! Must be because some of our men are established that we can attract willing women. lol

I wouldn't change the gender ratio for anything. It wouldn't be nearly as rewarding to captain a team of all or mostly guys.