contact when making that big throw

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#1

So I'm still not clear on this


Say I'm trying to make a big backhand throw into the endzone. First a fake a flick then come to my big backhand (i.e. there is going to be lots of follow through). Now my marker is in motion and I'm in motion and there is contact on the back of my right hand. Whose foul is it? The rules just say: "Whoever initiated contact

I. Fouls

6. Throwing Fouls

C. Although it should be avoided whenever possible, incidental contact occurring during the follow-through (After the disc has been released) is not sufficient grounds for a foul, unless the contact constitutes harmful endangerment.


So, if you are winding up and know the defender is there and you nail him/her it is your foul.

Jon By Jon

Nice work Uncle Buck. I especially liked the way that you quoted the rule first, and then summed it up with a statement that contradicts the rule.

No, Jon, to me there is a difference between "incidental contact" and "Nailing" someone with your backhand.....


(Nailing someone is Dangerous)

Bang on, Uncle Buck. Twice.

However, Fenton's scenario sounds like no foul, so long as the marker wasn't nailed.


From the wording it didn't sound like there was harmful endangerment...

Jon By Jon

Of course there's a difference between nailing somebody and incidental contact. Which part of Fenton's original post made you think he nailed somebody? He said "there is contact on the back of my right hand", and you read into that that he "nailed" somebody and called a foul from behind your computer?


The correct answer should go something like: "The default situation is that contact on the follow through is not a foul, however, if the defender feels that your actions constituted harmful endangerment, he can call a foul". There's plenty of times when contact on the follow through is just incidental.


Whoa... easy there Jon.


Buck didn't say he nailed him, he said "if"...


Breathe in... breathe out... breathe in... breathe out... re-read post... edit to not sound like a jerk... hit 'send'.

Ignoring the above exchanges, I'm a bit unclear on what happenned, Fenton.


If the contact was on the follow-through, then whoever is in motion is generally irrelevant. However, the bits about endangerment etc. may still apply.


If the contact was before the disc was released, then the foul will depend on what the contact was. If the marker hit your hand with their hand/arm/leg then it's a foul regardless of motion (the infamous XIV.B.) If the contact was between your hand and torso, then it is the person who initiated contact who is guilty of a foul.


maz By maz

Exactly. As I understand, the 10th ed. rules state that any arm-to-arm contact (or hand-to-hand contact) between the thrower and the marker is always a foul on the marker.


Arm/hand to torso or head is a different story.

Thank you all for your comments. I'll clarify my question. Contact happened before I released the disk, and it was not my hand against their body, it was my hand against their hand. I'm going to go back to the rules because I didn't really find this the first time I looked, all I saw was "whoever initiated contact...", but thanks for posting the location of the rule so now I can email their captain so he can coach their player.


Thanks all again.


Fenton

Okay I'm not finding the reference to this foul in the rules, can someone point it out to these blind eyes!

Do you mean XIV.B as noted by Gin-Boh in post 8, above?

As Mortikai and Gin Boh have alluded to:


XIV.B) The markerís extended arms and legs

cannot be positioned in such a manner as to

restrict the thrower from pivoting or throwing.

Contact resulting from such an action is a foul on

the marker.


As a marker, you are not allowed to position your

extended arms in any way that prevents a

thrower from throwing in any direction. (Once it's

out of their hands it's fair game). You can only

use your body to prevent the thrower from

throwing.


If there's contact, it's the foul on the marker.


You can't call somebody on using their arms to

prevent your throw unless there's contact (could

you call a violation?), so my suggestion is to

make your throw regardless of wether or not their

hand is there. If there's contact call foul.


This rule is an exception to the general "whoever

initiates contact is the fouler".


Some would argue that it's not right/spirited/

sportsmanlike to throw through somebody's arms,

but I suggest the following:


A) That's the only way that you can prove and

call the illegal positioning.


B) The D is hoping to make contact with the disc

you're throwing, that's why there arms are there.

Whether you whip the disc into their hand just

after you let it go, or just before, shouldn't

matter to the D (meaning that one isn't any more

spirited/right than the other). But one is a foul

Obviously you shouldn't *aim* for their arm, as

that's pretty stupid regardless of whether you

think they are too close or not.


Nor should you smack their arm with the disc and

expect call a foul to reset the count. The contact

has to be made during a throwing motion. You

should be trying to make a legitamate throw,

when I say you should throw through (under/

over/around) their arm.

Where are the official rules posted, because I can't find this section in the 'Ultimate Handbook' website.


http://www.ultimatehandbook.com/Webpages/Others/rules.html#marker

Okay found the rules that I will use from now on at www.upa.org,


Guess I should tell the webmaster at ultihandbook to update their rules, thanks all.


Fenton

I think they've been notified. And I've mentioned

that we shouldn't have a link to the handbook, as

that's leading more people to the 9th ed, than

bother to find it on the VUL site under downloads:


http://www.vul.bc.ca/download/10thfinal.html

(It says proposal, but it's the final version.)