stall count

16 posts / 0 new
Last post
#1

throw by dark team goes down line white does a hard sprint and intercepts (which pulls him out of bounds). immediatly the dark begins counting stalls before the white player has even got to the line (got to three) white player asks for stalls to be reset to one as he was not inbounds no established a pivot black states that he does not have to and i should read the rules....so here i am is he right??

as a sidenote i had not stopped running in one direction by the time he started counting and i did not take my time get back inbounds

Does the other guy know how to punctuate a sentence? Then I'm on his side.
:P

If the player in question has possession of the disc and has made ground contact, then I believe the stall count can be commenced by the other player.

The dark team member gave you good advice, read the rules, especially if you're going to
argue
them:

http://www.vul.bc.ca/v3/home/download/UPA11thEd.htm

Read XIV.A.2, and next time you can tell him why you were actually correct. You can't start
the
stall count after a Turn Over until the thrower establishes a pivot.

XIV.A.2) Only the marker (II.K) may initiate or continue a stall count, and may do so
anytime a
thrower has possession of a disc that is live or in play. However, directly after a turnover or
when putting the pull into play the stall may not be initiated before a pivot is established,
unless
delay of game or pre-stall rules (XIII.A.3, XIII.A.4, XIII.A.5 or VI.B.5.d)) apply.

This is different from the old 10th edition, where you could start a stall count any time that
you were within 3m of the spot on the field the disc was to be put into play. Now, only on a
TO, you have to wait for a pivot to be set.

So the way that's worded, if there's a TO that is caught by the light team, and that defender stops IB, the marker couldn't start stalling until that new handler makes a pivoting motion, as they haven't really established a pivot (either foot could be set as the pivot, or head depending on how they landed). Obviously that's not the way it's played, or should be played, but that's how it reads.

I somewhat disagree, IN. Here's the definition of a pivot:

"The particular part of the body in continuous contact with a single spot on the field during a thrower’s possession once the thrower has come to a stop or has attempted a throw or fake. . . ."

If the thrower is standing, you don't need to know which foot is the pivot. He has come to a stop, and established a pivot, even if he hasn't advertised it. All you need to know is that one of his feet is the pivot, and that it won't change once he reveals it.

Of course, in the case of a thrower who has fallen to the ground, there must be an exception. He is allowed to get up, but when does the stall count start? Does the count reset if the thrower gets up? I'll have to check the rules in detail later.

atanarjuat,

Since the thrower is allowed to throw from any position, while he's on the ground he still has a
pivot, just one that's not yet identified (as you described for the standing thrower.) The only
exception is that they are allowed to lose/change that pivot if they get up. So it still stands that
a marker within 3m of the thrower's ground contact (be it on or off the field) can initiate and
continue a stall count.

Gin-Boh,

I think what you say SHOULD happen, but I'm envisioning this kind of dispute on the field:

Player A, on defense, makes layout catch and crashes to the ground.
Player B jumps onto the mark and begins counting stalls.
Player A, on his stomach: "Hey! You can't start counting! I haven't established a pivot yet."
Player B: "Sure, you have! You just haven't stood up yet."
Player A: "Where do you think I've established a pivot!?"
Player B: "I don't know. But it must be somewhere!"

It just seems a little too absurd to be true.

atanarjuat,

It may sound absurd to somebody who has their own definition of what a pivot is, but it
makes sense to you and me, and everybody else who knows what the rules call a pivot. If a
player has come to a stop on the ground, you can start the count. This differs from the 10th
Ed only that you now have to wait for that diving/rolling player to come to a stop (as long as
it's in bounds).

In your scenario, that player can lay on the ground all day and make whatever throw they
want from their seated/lying position. If you think they can take all the time they want and
the count can't start until they stand up, that's what I call absurd.

--

Gin-Boh: "So it still stands that a marker within 3m of the thrower's ground contact (be it on
or off the field) can initiate and continue a stall count."

Yes, for a completed pass. For a Turn Over they have to have a pivot (which is always IB).

-->
Player A, on defense, makes layout catch and crashes to the ground.
Player B jumps onto the mark and begins counting stalls.
Player A, on his stomach: "Hey! You can't start counting! I haven't established a pivot yet."
Player B: "Sure, you have! You just haven't stood up yet."
Player A: "Where do you think I've established a pivot!?"
Player B: "I don't know. But it must be somewhere!"
<--

Only absurd because player B has said the wrong thing with his last statement. What it should be is this...

Player A: "Where do you think I've established a pivot!?"
Player B: "It's under your body. If you want more preciseness than that, YOU need to answer that question."

An alternative would have been to say: "It's your crotch!" Followed by a groping gesture, and a lasciviously waggling tongue.

so mort, following your previously stated reasoning. how would the rules view the situation when the layout took the defensive player out of bounds?? he can't start counting till the player brings it in right? (unless the offensive player calls delay of game)

I'll answer for mort:

XIV.A.2 (partial): "However, directly after a turnover or when putting the pull into play the stall
may not be initiated before a pivot is established, unless delay of game or pre-stall rules
(XIII.A.3, XIII.A.4, XIII.A.5 or VI.B.5.d)) apply"

Can't get too much more clear than that.

Yes, Sean, it seems that the initial answers may have been incorrect. If the D player intercepted
the disc after they were OB (rather, if they did not contact IB after the interception) then the
was-O-now-D cannot start a count until the new O establishes a pivot on the field. If the new O
player touches IB and runs out, then the new D can start a count when they're within 3m of the
pivot. That pivot is the spot where the new O left the field, and they have to re-establish a pivot
there. However, my credibility may not be so good lately, so you may want to wait for
confirmation.

-->I'll answer for mort<--

Yup, what HE said.

"It just seems a little too absurd to be true."

We play a game invented by a Hollywood producer that consists of chasing a plastic toy based upon a pie tin.

"That pivot is the spot where the new O left the field, and they have to re-establish a pivot
there."

Nope, the pivot isn't where you left the field, that's only where your pivot must be set. You
have
not established a pivot when you've run OB, whether catching IB or OB.

OB Scenario: On a TO, if you catch IB and run OB, the D cannot start counting until you
come back IB.

IB Scenario: On a TO, if you catch IB and run, roll, or slide, all while staying IB, the D cannot
start counting stalls until you've established a pivot. So, until you either start the throwing
motion (why bother, you won't even get to the "One") or you come to a stop.